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  #81  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Help! How can I post a table of numbers and have them line up in columns?
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Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
Paulo,

I am not taking anything you say personally. I agree with your signature earlier: in friendship. This is simply a discussion about boats and use, especially as it pertains to racing type boats.
Nice to now that but Brian in what regards cruising boats you keep thinking that only what is good for you, even if that is good for most, is good to all.

Simple logic should have already finished this discussion a long time ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
My point in all of this, which I may not have explained well, is to discuss the feasibility of certain boats for cruising. ... I have laid out exactly what I carry and the space it takes up. My point in doing that was to discuss what we carry, how it would fit in other boats, what might be excluded, and the repercussions/impacts of putting the chosen items on other boats....You will find that if you are a cruiser, you will carry these items too.
That is quite simple: a boat is feasible to cruise and to voyage extensively if there are cruisers that cruise and voyages extensively in it and finds it adequate for that.

That completely invalidates what you call your point: There are lots of cruisers cruising and voyaging on those boats and they do that by choice.

I find amusing that you fail to understand that some would prefer to voyage in those boats and even more amusing your incapacity to understand that those that like to voyage in those boats in conditions that you would find Spartan would find boring your boat and would prefer theirs. Brian, some of those boats are expensive, some more than yours

The fact is that there is not only a lonely sailor doing that but entire families some even in real racing boats (adapted). The fact is that you don't have to command a special design to a NA to do that or adapt a solo race boat, there are many performance cruising designs for that kind of voyaging, some even made in small production (and the RM and Pogo in more than small production).

The stuff you carry and think it is indispensable is only indispensable for you, not obviously for the ones that cruises and voyage on those boats (an hair-drier, for god-sake I never used an hair-drier in my entire live and that is not a problem to my sons or to my wife either). Luxury for her is to pass her hair with fresh water each two days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
...
So to be clear, I was trying to discuss boats from a cruising point of view. I wanted to be specific and make this an educational discussion. This thread was never to pick out the perfect boat. It was also in no way to say you cannot cruise on a particular boat. It was simply a thread of information and discussions on what works, what we each like, what we don't like, and the tradeoffs of certain boats if you chose them for cruising (specifically racer-cruisers) and why. ..
I don't think you are being completely honest about this (not saying it is intentional). you are not trying to understand why some prefer to voyage and cruise in boats that you call racers (instead of performance cruisers) or why do they prefer that.

That is a fact:

they voyage and cruise and they prefer to do that on those boats, that is not disputable.

Some are even production boats made expressly for fast cruising and unsuitable for racing, like the RM or the Pogo.

It would be interesting if this discussion was a balanced one and you were trying to understand why they prefer those boats to your boat and how they live in them instead of trying to say that those boats are not cruising boats, neither the ones that sail them are cruisers, because you cannot put in them all the stuff that you consider indispensable for cruising.

Brian, they cruise and voyage on those boats, they like those boats, they like to cruise and live the way they do. It is not a question of money, those boats are expensive. A 40ft performance voyage boat is probably more expensive than your boat and if you want one you have to go to a long waiting list while the Catalina 400 has no clients that justifies it to be kept in production.

Not saying this to say that the Catalina 400 is a bad boat you know that is not my opinion, but Brian there are more long range cruisers buying Pogos and RM than Catalina 400, they exist and they don't like your boat,the same way you don't like theirs.

You don't like their boat because you cannot put all your stuff inside (and that is not even truth in what regards a RM or a Pogo with the same length) and they don't want your boat for cruising or even sailing because it is boring to sail and slow.

I know that you think your boat is fast one but believe me, for the ones that chose to cruise in performance boats your boat is a slow one that does not even have a traveler near the wheel or a fractional rig, a back stay adjuster not to mention weight or a inefficient shallow keel (the Pogo has a swing keel and can have less draft than your boat).

Yes I know that you think all that is for racing but you fail to understand that those that sail those boats enjoy sailing and like to have their sails perfectly trimmed and have pleasure in sailing a fast and responsive boat. That is not only a question of speed but a question of sailing pleasure.

I don't pretend or want to change your cruising style but I hope to have contributed to answer to your question: Why some prefer to cruise in a performance boat and they do, THAT'S A FACT as it is a fact that there are in the market performance cruising boats designed for them, even some pointed to long range cruising.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-23-2013 at 08:41 PM.
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  #83  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Paulo posted an interesting link for the various ARC rallies. First, there are a lot of really rich folks out there and the vast majority of boats are in the $500K (USD) to $1M price range. The typical 45-65 foot Oysters, Hylas, Moodys etc.
You have to look again The vast majority of boats are Jeanneau, Bavaria, Beneteau. Some Pogos too and a considerable number of Lagoon by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

.. The boats would be more comparable if we placed them side by side on a table. I have done this for my own boat as well as the 400 and 409. Please double check the numbers. For example, the Jeanneau’s keel and displacement values appear to be on the light side. I have a series of formulas that calculate all sorts of ratios so that might be of future interest.
Yes, old formulas to old boats, you can stay with them but they are useless for modern boats. Of course the Jeanneau is light compared to a Catalina, a sailboat is supposed to be light, specially if we want to have a good performance.

The jeanneau is built with an infusion process that can make it lighter an as strong as a heavier boat. About the keel weight, the weight you need on a keel has a direct relation with the weight of the boat, the draft and the keel design. The jeanneau has more draft, is lighter and has a modern bulbed keel while the Catalina has an old designed non bulbed one. You cannot make a direct comparison. You can look at sail area. Sail area is normally proportional to the boat stability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

The “fatty” 400 is a mere 5 inches wider than the Jeanneau. Another surprising dimension is the 409’s LWL is only an inch shorter than it’s LOA.
Fat has not to do with beam alone and sometimes has nothing to do with it. A 40class racer is hugely more beamier than any of those boats and is the opposite of a fat boat. It has to do with the hull, weight and the bow entries. When I said that the Catalina was fat I was comparing it with the RM (that has more beam than the Catalina). regarding the Jeanneau the difference is probably not so big but the Jeanneau has obviously a faster and more elegant hull.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

Catalina 34 MkII PHRF 144

Catalina 400 PHRF 110

Jeaneau 409 PHRF 73

Aereodyne 38 PHRF 27

...
Here you have pertinent information regarding performance but I don't understand where yo got that PHRF for the Aerodyne 38. The numbers I got are 39 for the all carbon version and 42 for the epoxy/carbon version. Regarding the Aerodyne price you can only be joking: or it is an used old boat or a very, very old price...and even so.

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

I love the Aerodyne, a boat designed by Rodger Martin. They were made in South Africa and now it seems it is a Finnish company (don't know if they are made there or are still in business). There are some sailors that would not mind to cruise in them but the boat is a cruiser racer with a very strong optimization for racing and the interior even if functional is a bit stark.

Probably in what regards cruising would be a more extreme boat than a J122. That is not a boat designed with voyage in mind but certainly it has the potential seaworthiness and stability to be used that way, if adapted for the job and providing the ones that would voyage in it are the kind of sailors that would chose a very light and fast boat to voyage and don't mind the spartan look and feel.

It would probably need a watermaker but the engine (and the diesel) would only be used for charging the batteries because that boat can SAIL with very light wind. Little diesel tankage would be needed.

I don't know why you bring the 34ft Catalina. It is not in the same class as the others in what regards size, stability or seaworthiness as a blue water cruiser.

The Catalina 400 only has that PHRF (100) with the deep keel. Brian's boat with a shallow keel has a PHRF of 120.

The jeanneau and the Catalina are the same type of boat. Brian says the Catalina interior is bigger and has more storage but I know that the Jeanneau 409 with two cabins has a big storage with plenty space for generator and all that stuff. The differences would not be considerable even if the storage of the Catalina can, according to Brian, be slightly bigger.

The performance is very different, a PHRF of 120 compared with a 73.

Note that I am not saying that all sailors would like more the Jeanneau. There are heavier and slower boats than the Catalina 400, specially on the American market, but obviously performance is an important point in boats with similar cruising characteristics, I mean belonging to the same market segment.

Anyway the importance of that varies with sailors, as the relative importance of having what one finds to be a nice interior and that depends in great measure of personal taste. What is important is to have a boat that we like and that is adapted to the cruising and sailing style of each one.

For me the Jeanneau 409 is not enough fun or fast to sail and don't have a traveler near the wheel. I would not have one for cruising and sailing.

Probably the Aerodyne has a cruiser interior too spartan for me (but functional and adapted to more spartan cruisers), besides it is out of my price range.

I would say that If new, regarding 40ft boats I would chose the Salona 41 (I don't like the Dehler 41 interior) and even so it would be a bit more expensive than the Jeanneau. I also like the J122 and could live with one but the price is also out of my reach. My boat would also be an option but also out of my range as new.

But that is just what is adapted to me, my life style and cruising style. Some would prefer faster boats for cruising (and there are some on this site with them) and most would settle for a slower boat with more interior space (more fat) and with more storage.

Bottom point: you have to find out first what is your budget and then see if you have money for a new boat or just an used one. if you have money for a new boat you have to see if you are limited or if you can chose and what is the scope of that choice. Then, according with the budget, you have to try to understand what type of boat will make you happy. Sometimes you only have 2 or 3 possible choices.

For that it is important to see the boat interior on a boat show and it is fundamental to sail the boat. A Catalina 400 would seem very similar to a jeanneau 409 on a boat show (with different styles) but in the water it would be a completely different boat.

All boats are different even if we can join them in groups according with speed and sailing characteristics but even so they feel differently at the wheel and that, as well as the sailing characteristics, will probably be important to you, they are certainly to me.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-23-2013 at 10:36 PM.
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  #84  
Old 04-24-2013
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo,

Look at what George is currently sailing, and you may see, as I will swag why the C34 was brought into the comparison, ie it is what he has now! From THAT angle, certainly worth bringing up that boat model! Now truly comparing it to the other boats.....yes, I would agree, not in the same ball game. The other, being as they are all in thesame general size bracket if you will, it is worth comparing them.

I have also been saying many times over, Jeanneau's in general thru the years, are faster than catalina's. Last weekend, I literally out sailed 2 C420's and a C400. I was beating them boat for boat, much less on handicap! I'm rated a 204 non flying sails, IIRC they were in the 140-150 range NFS. My base local is 189 with flying sails, NEngland which you mentioned earlier IIRC I am a 169 or 172 or there abouts. possibly even a 159. PHRF DOES generally speaking, within regions change ratings. NE is able to do a lot of triangular courses, herein Puget Sound where I am, reaching is a good day, most of the time you are either going upwind, or down! nothing in the middle per say. My boat is 28' on deck no less. Local there is a C34 raced frequently, it is 174 IIRC with a typical local FS rating. I actually race at 195 fs, due to a smaller spin than normal.

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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Paulo- we are wimps and like every comfort but also like to get where we are going. Using your logic let's compare a j120 ( couldn't find pogo in NE phrf site so choose that as a "fast boat") to an outbound at phrf of 33 to 90. When cruising our average hop is ~700m so that means by phrf the j boat will arrive there 5h 15m quicker. In my life of cruising it just don't signify against the comfort, beauty and wonderful ride of my boat. In reality as my skill set rises and I become more confident I believe we'll will push the outbound harder then we would the j boat so the difference would be less. Also the livability of my boat ( comfort at anchor, maintenance etc.) is non pareil. The owners of the other cruising boats on this thread probably feel the same way about their boats.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by outbound View Post
Paulo- we are wimps and like every comfort but also like to get where we are going. Using your logic let's compare a j120 ( couldn't find pogo in NE phrf site so choose that as a "fast boat") to an outbound at phrf of 33 to 90. When cruising our average hop is ~700m so that means by phrf the j boat will arrive there 5h 15m quicker. In my life of cruising it just don't signify against the comfort, beauty and wonderful ride of my boat. In reality as my skill set rises and I become more confident I believe we'll will push the outbound harder then we would the j boat so the difference would be less. Also the livability of my boat ( comfort at anchor, maintenance etc.) is non pareil. The owners of the other cruising boats on this thread probably feel the same way about their boats.
regards
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Ok, you can be wimps and like every comfort but even so there are others that need and want even more comfort, like the motion of a really heavy boat and need of more space and comfort. Some just hate heel and will chose a boat that heel very little or a multihull. Nothing wrong with that and they are right too.

No wrong here I have nothing against guys that like to voyage and sail in slow or very slow sailing boats and they sail more comfortably for sure since speed equals almost always less comfort, not only in the type of the boat but in what regards sea motion even if that can be misleading sometimes when the boat is planning or semi- planning downwind.

I also have nothing against the guys that like to cruise, sail and voyage in boats faster than the ones I prefer (and there are lots of them).

I am only pissed with guys that think that the way they look at cruising, voyage and living is the only right one and are unable to understand that the boat and lifestyle they prefer would be boring to some and uncomfortable to others.

That is obvious and I don't understand the difficulty of understanding it.

Look at the boat market: there re plenty offers of voyage boats way faster than yours on the trade winds and some are even produced in considerable numbers. That means that there are many that want and prefer faster boats for cruising and voyaging and they are so many that justifies the production of boats and not only one offs.

THAT IS A FACT: they exist, they voyage and cruise and they would not have your boat over a much faster boat. That has not to do only with function (arriving some days first on an Atlantic crossing), but mostly with the pleasure to sail and voyage on a fast sail machine, the same way that one does not have a sport car to arrive faster (there are speed limits) but for the pleasure that it gives to drive.

I am hoping that you finally understand that I find the Outbound a great cruising boat, that will satisfy some types of cruisers and voyagers but that it will not satisfy all that like to cruise and voyage. That's why there are so many types of cruising and voyage boats.

It is ridiculous to call racing boats to all cruising boats faster than the one we own or assume that they are unsuitable for cruising just because they are not fit to do that the way you or Brian do.

If some chose them as voyage and cruising boats then it is because they are fit for those sailors in what regards cruising and voyaging: this is not evident? They do actually sail, voyage and circumnavigate in them.

It is not a question of money: Fast boats are expensive.

Racing boats are boats designed exclusively for racing and when you and Brian talk of racers you are not talking about those boats but about performance cruisers, some of them never intended or designed for racing. That makes no sense.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 04-24-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I’ve got a busy day so only had a chance to “skim” the messages, but I’ll try to add context to my yesterday’s message. I used the C34 as a “base boat” as I am quite familiar with it being a past national champion in that boat. I am also potentially in the market for a 40 foot boat to cruise Mexico and beyond in the next couple of years. My dilemma is it worth it to me to double/treble/quadruple my current boat cost as I enter into retirement? My C34 is a pretty capable little boat – It qualifies for the PacCup, TransPac, SHTP, and Bermuda 1-2 races so it has the “chops” IMHO for what I want to do. The question is how much comfort and performance would I get by buying a 40 footer and does it make economic sense for me. I pulled the dimensional numbers off of various sources on the internet and I am a little suspicious of several of them. My spreadsheet uses the PHRF formula to calculate that number so if the dimensional data is off, so would the PHRF number. No offense to my New England brothers, but NEYRA is highly political and they plug a lot of adjustments into their base numbers (I know, as I was also the national measurer for C34 at one time). NorCal YRA base utilizes an unadulterated formula. I thought the PHRF number for the Aerodyne was low too as we raced as a 36 rating ten years ago (I’ll see if I can find an old certificate to verify the numbers.) I will also expand my database to include a J122. I also want to put in a “true” cruising boat that is about 40 feet as a comparison (to anchor one side of the continuum.) I suggest that when someone wants to introduce a new boat into this discussion, they first post the dimensional data so I have some way of calibrating the boat in our continuum. Boats discussed that don’t have this data I’ll consider as “vaporware” and I’ll not consider or address them. I think that if we start to use more quantitative methods, we will all gain a better understanding and will be able to further the discussion.

Paulo, I was looking at the division standings for the ARC. What division should I be looking in to find the Beneteaus and Jeanneaus ?

Is there a way I can post tabular data on Sail Net? I’d like to post my expanding database.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

LOA: 44'9" Sail Area: 1083
DWL: 40'3" Water: 200gal.
Beam: 13'6" Fuel: 200gal.
Draft: 6'6"/5'6" SA/Disp: 18.75
Disp.(light): 33,000 Disp/Length: 189
Ballast:
10,000 (w/ 3500# bulb) Beam/Length: 3.3
Bridge Clearance
64' LPS (IMS) 127 degrees
In the spectrum of modern boats- moderation in all degrees. Will give sailing polar and sail plan to follow
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

Outbound, thanks for the data. Is this an Outbound 46? Don't forget the water tankage and engine size, as tanks and engine are probably a discrimnator for cataloging cruising boats.

My PHRF formula (which I got from the SFYRA PHRF committee doesn't calculate the Cal 40 rating correctly (albeit, it is spot on for all the Catalinas). I just might include the official SFYRA PHRF along with my calculated number.
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Re: Why a racer for cruising discussion...

I 59’
J 17.5’
P 52.74’
E 18.5’
sorry can't figure out how to transfer sailing polar.

Don't understand why Paulo makes inference he does. Thought seriously about building a "state of the art" high performance cruiser. Wouldn't have done so if I did not respect those vessels. I understand why some folks are drawn to the fastest thing afloat and prefer those vessels. I've owned many bikes and cars and some that were driven mostly on "track days" only. I understand the fascination with speed. I choose a boat that in the spectrum of boats currently afloat is fairly fast but clearly many boats are faster. I did a Newport to Bermuda race where the owner of the tri went through our personal kit to eliminate any excess weight ( we won). But I, like many, will sacrifice a bit of speed to not be concerned about those issues. Wife likes to do her hair and a nice hot shower is a pleasant anytime and anywhere. The issue of expense is not relevant to this decision. At $525K base boat and most going out with $100 to $200K over that Outbounds aint cheap. Phil is still taking new orders for 46s and 52s. Must be a reason. I have no problem with those making other decisions and see the merit. But it seems you have issue with the fact that Outbound is also a joy to sail in anything from ghosting to 50kts.
Not going to pick up the gauntlet anymore Paulo. We just see things differently. Guess it comes with the temperance of age.
GeorgeB. Do what's right for you. The h-ll with this thread. It hasn't gotten focused to the reasonable question you posit. If the extra money means you will have more security and joy on land keep the C34. She a sweet boat and very capable. If it's on your bucket list to cruise the world with your lady and occasional guests go for it. To return to Paulo's examples then decide is it on a Lambo, Mercedes or Landrover. Remember the Ford gets you to the same place too and aint so bad at all. Don't think you would be unhappy on anyone of these (grin).
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