SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Why a racer for cruising discussion...

32K views 237 replies 34 participants last post by  steve77 
#1 ·
We all have different opinions of what makes a good cruising boat. I get that. Believe me, Paulo's idea of what makes a good cruising boat, Jeff_h's, my dad's, and mine are three different animals altogether! I respect all of their opinions, but I have long tried to make a different case.

My question in what could be a very debated thread is why you would choose what I consider a race boat for cruising? I am sure to get the typical response of, "Because we appreciate being able to sail and appreciate sailing over creature comforts." I have heard some variation of that for years. But, for a fulltime cruising boat, do you really gain that much going to a racing boat for cruising?

First, lets define cruising. Cruising, in my opinion (and everyone gets their own), is fulltime, probably no house, everything in storage, I am going-going-going or living on the water for well over a year, and likely many years, if not permanently. I have to tell you that the difference between taking off for a few weeks or even a few months (both of which I have done) while still maintaining a residence is TOTALLY different than selling it all and sailing (which we do now). Why? Because when you sell it all and sail, you don't have the luxury of odd storage, a place to return to when the boat gets cramped, that (un)realistic knowledge in the back of your head that if your boat sinks, you will just have to move back to your house and deal with the insurance company. I think SSCA has a similar definition, which I agree with, but I guess everyone gets their own. What I don't think is cruising is taking off for a few weeks, maybe a few months, where the idiosyncracies of your boat can just be shrugged off until you get back home. That seems like vacationing to me.

Next, lets define racer/performance/HD. My idea of a performance boat is a boat that meets or slightly exceeds hull speed in normal wind conditions. These are the typical conditions a cruiser will set off in, not necessarily the conditions they will see. Lets say these conditions are 15-20 kts sustained. A boat that cannot reach hull speed at these numbers is what I would define as a HD (heavy displacement cruiser... though I can think of a few more metaphors!). A boat that goes well over hull speed in 15-20, or in less than 15 sustained, I would define as a racer. Again, these are all open to discussion. They are my loose definitions.

Now, I am not in any way suggesting that everyone needs to get a HD Cruiser for cruising (though an argument can be made for them), but why get a racer? The majority of these boats are generally narrow beams, light storage, very light tankage, and deep draft. Many have air draft over 65, cutting off any hope of the ICW, and I can even make a good argument that air and water drafts over ICW limits also cut off safety. The comment will come up as usual, "because we appreciate a performing boat over the creature comforts." Well, if you are cruising, is your boat really still a racer?

For example, my boat used to be a LOT faster than it is now. SHe loved to jump up and go, and now it takes pretty close to 20 to get her at hull speed or thereabouts. I have a LOT of stuff on my boat, and I have two kids. I will admit that without the kids, it would be easier to rearrange this stuff to make it more accommodating for speed. Heck, our cans and food would be cut over half! But does my boat really have that much stuff on it for a cruising boat? Solar? Gotta make power some way. Without solar you are doomed to make power with a generator and subsequently carry more gas and diesel at what can easily add up to more weight. Water jugs. A few diesel jugs. Lots of food. Lots of tools. Lots of spare parts. Life raft. Some books (more minimal now with kindle). Snorkel gear (though I carry dive gear too). Tender. TV. Guitar. Bike. Cart. Minimal documents (now have scanned in most). My boat is heavy. I could cut some stuff, but these all get used and make our boat our home.

So what do you cut? And more importantly, where do you put that stuff that you feel is essential on a race boat? Most of the cruising boats I see, which have lots of storage, still have stuff crammed in every corner and every spare inch. I am not going to say I couldn't get rid of some stuff, but our deal is that if we don't use it much, it is off the boat (spare parts and tools the exception). Lets see, just my tools take up a 30x30x60 area... and that does not even include all the spare parts! Pots and pans of various sizes, including vacuseal bags, flower, sugar, and other necessary items take up the exact same side across from it. Can goods and bottled water fill the bilge. Spare parts in the holds below the waterline. Everything heavy is low, light is high. Most everything on this boat is secured in a locker or behind strong fiddleboards.

So again, what do you cut on a race boat? Can you? Cabinetry is often at a minimum. If you do not cut much, is that boat still a race boat? My argument has long been that when cruising on one of these boats, the stuff that the HD or even performance boats can stowe safely below and in holds, you end up stuffing in every corner, above the waterline, and/or on deck. Whereas we can keep most of our stuff safely secured and below the waterline, you may not or your boat is sooo stuffed down below that you cannot move around. And if you stuff it above deck, is that boat still performing well? Is she still safe for cruising? Because if you put 5000 pounds of stuff on a boat that is 25,000 lbs, then you have altered its displacement by 17%. If you put that same 5000 lbs on a boat that displaces 15000 lbs, you have altered its displacement by 25%... or about 50% more. Not to mention, much of that stuff in my opinion will go above the waterline and on decks whereas other boats can keep it below.

Now, a 40 foot racer as a man cave, single guy, I get that. I don't agree with it, but I get it. Its just you. But can you and a spouse really make that work long term? With kids? And is your boat going to be safer than mine, or a HD cruiser, when you really load it up with what you will need to cruise with? My guess (GUESS) is that you have now really changed that boat and the very properties you came to admire it for are now lost upon your chosen lifestyle. I also guess (GUESS) that in reality, that boat is less safe than the typical HD or performance cruiser which has the ability to properly stowe items.

What are others opinions? Agree? Disagree? Why?

Brian
 
See less See more
#44 ·
"I have often considered investing in a trysail. I already have the track for it. I actually have a heavy made sail for a much smaller boat in storage in Washington. I wonder how that would work on my boat??"

I've never hoisted a trysail in anger. I wouldn't bother getting one. I like deep reefs in a sturdy main, and frankly the main is going to get pulled down pretty early in a serious blow. On the other hand, I really like a storm staysail hanked on to an inner forestay. With a boat that sails reasonably well, you can even claw to weather with only the staysail flying...and someone on the helm who can steer.
 
#54 ·
PCP,

That 409 is an ugly duckling like an IKEA catalog.

What I remember about checking out Jenneau is a very irritating step down towards the bow (all models) and clearly I am not a fan of European interior design.
Listen, I am not bashing the Catalina 400 that is a good sailing boat. Brian is the one that was bashing the Jeanneau 409, that is also a good boat. What I said was that I liked more the interior of the 409 and that the hull design of the Catalina is an older design with a worse performance.

Regarding the interior it is a question of personal taste and the Catalina has certainly a great galley.

Regards

Paulo
 
#52 ·
I won't quote Paulo,s long post but....

Does anyone remember any sailing magazine EVER saying much bad things about a boat they have tested? They may point out one or two minor areas that "could be improved"...

why is that one might wonder? Maybe because of the mighty advertising $$$$ ?
 
#55 ·
Must be why Chevy builds cars and trucks, same as ford, same as dodge.......Mercedes etc.......boats are similar, there is not ONE boat model or brand that will suffice for everyone!

Frankly, I prefer my Jeanneau over a catalina of the same vintage. One it is typically 20-30 secs a mile faster in handicap. Even a Cat 30 which is 2' longer than me, I am dang near on par in all measures as a C28mkII! The interior look and feel is different between the two! Even for a mid 80's model and design.

While I and many other Jeanneau affecionado's do not like the newer interior wood look, only so much one can do about it, when many manufactures are trying to stretch som resources. Teak being one of them, so they ar grinding it up, making it sorta look real with shavings. which can stretch a given lb of teak wood farther. ALso allowing the cost to stay lower! Whether this is good or bad.....not going to say one way or the other, as I think I have already said the why. No different than iron vs lead keels. Lead is 10-20 times as expensive as iron lb for lb. 4000 lbs of lead vs iron.......adds up to $20K just in metal alone! Saving the buyer some money in the beginning. Be it good or bad, again, up to you to decide!

As far as a type of boat.....a race cruiser which Jeanneau is NOT currently advertised as, the old Sun Fast models were, the Sun Odessey models have all mostly been cruise /race to currently "Performance Cruisers". Catalina gets advertised as a cruiser! Cruiser vs performance cruiser means slower! just as cruise/race will be faster than aperf cruiser, but slower than a race/cruiser or racer! WIth in a given relm of boat, a slow race cruise may be slower than a fast cruise/racer! or have a nicer interior, but that manufacture chooses to sell as a race/cruise vs cruise/racer!

WOuld I buy a catalina.....wife has found one or two she likes, generally speaking, she goes in, says yuck, walks out. Brians wife does this with jeanneaus. Both purr in the opposite boat. Only really matters to brian and I as we are married to these women. Otherwise, frankly it really does not matter!

My boat I would like to have a shower,much less 2 showers! A generator? not likely....

J105's were basically designed to race, but can cruise. Head room is 5'8", just taller than the ave female! Designer assumes these buyer owners will spend every other night or so in a B&B, the rest at anchor maybe, or at a dock! Cruising to some!

What your style of cruising is, will depend upon the type of boat you own!\

Marty
 
#56 · (Edited)
...
As far as a type of boat.....a race cruiser which Jeanneau is NOT currently advertised as, the old Sun Fast models were, the Sun Odessey models have all mostly been cruise /race to currently "Performance Cruisers". Catalina gets advertised as a cruiser! Cruiser vs performance cruiser means slower! just as cruise/race will be faster than aperf cruiser, but slower than a race/cruiser or racer! WIth in a given relm of boat, a slow race cruise may be slower than a fast cruise/racer! or have a nicer interior, but that manufacture chooses to sell as a race/cruise vs cruise/racer!
..
Just to make this clear. In Europe a performance cruiser is a denomination for all boats that can cruise in a fast way, boats that are fun to sail are meant for the ones that want to have fun sailing and have all controls that allow a perfect control of sail shape like a big traveler car on the back of the boat, 4 winches on the cockpit (or a direct main and two winches), fractional rig, back-stay adjuster and so on.

Some of these boats are also designed taking racing in mind, in what regards handicaps and the needs of space for a crew to sail the boat and they are called also cruiser-racers, some are just not designed taking that in consideration, they are designed just to go fast solo, or with a reduced crew and they are not called cruiser-racers, just performance cruisers. All cruiser racers are performance cruisers but not all performance cruisers are cruiser racers.

Some examples of the last ones: The Pogo cruising boats, the JPK 38, the Cigale and many others.

Every sailboat can be used for racing. What makes a cruiser racer is to have been designed thinking specifically in a dual function and purpose.

The Jeanneau 409 is not a cruiser racer and even if some for marketing purposes call it a performance cruiser it is not. It is a fast cruiser and has won the European boat of the year contest in the class of Family cruisers, not performance cruisers. That one was won that year by the Elan 350.

For the ones that don't know the European boat of the year contest is very different from contests of a boat of the year chose by a single saol magazine. They are chosen by testers from many European magazines, one for each country and as many countries have boats on the contest while others have not and that kind of balances the odds in what regards favoritism. In that year the Jeanneau 409 beat several other nominated (and not all boats are nominated, only the best): the Bavaria Cruiser 45, the Bénéteau Océanis 58, the Comet 26 and the Hanse 445.

At that time on the interesting boat thread I posted the positive and negative comments of all those testers from Yachting World, Fare Vela, Waterkampion, Batnytt, Yacht Revue, Seilas, Yate, Voile Magazine, Yacht, Badnyt and Marina.ch.

POSITIVE:

This Philippe Briand designed cruiser has many modern design features such as plumb ends, hull chines, an aft cockpit and twin wheels, but it is her accommodation that says more about what really lies at the heart of her design.

Her modest and elegantly fitted teak or oak interior is the first thing to grab your attention. While subtle in colour, the horizontal grain might not be a major feature, but it sets the scene for a boat that challenges the norm. ....

The message is clear, Jeanneau are heading back to their roots with a good looking, solidly built boat that has an eye on the future as well.

... Just in front of each of the wheels lies a Harken 50.2 self tailing winch onto which the mainsheet and genoa sheets are led ensuring the primary controls are close to hand for the helmsman, while also allowing the crew can operate them easily as well.
...At a starting price of €128,740 she is very good value for money for a well built boat that has looks that will last.

The 409 does not only have a very elegant appearance. She also features clever details on and below decks. The option of different headsails is a big plus. And the accomodation is both warm and roomy - something that doesn't always go together well. In fact, even though she is fairly priced she feels rather rich and very comfortable.

The more complete boat of the category, she looks more luxurious and refined than her class. She seems to be back to the Jeanneau best times, when they were realized in medium quality and far from cusins Beneteau.

+ very well designed
+ good deck solutions, many details well resolved
+ functional interior layouts
+ well done interior finishing, quality materials
+ good value for money

Those guys from Jeanneau are very clever : you can hardly beat them in term of value for money. You have lots and lots of space, the boat is rather good under sail and you feel you are on a special boat. Still, it is a mass production boat and the price is very good but you really enjoy living aboard and nothing reminds you of anything « low price ». Well done.

You feel the experience of the yard, when you are sailing the boat: good upwind performance and comfortable trim options, when you have choosen the electric sheetwinshes. Other fine features:
- Variable sailplan: especially the possibility to use three different foresails
- Ambiance under deck: The interior is made with brain and charm; well done woodwork with good working fittings; multifunctional navigation place and salon table.

I you want a boats to give good vibrations, Sun Odyssey 409 is a splendid example. It combines trendright chines, big beam aft with a coachroof ending in "shoulders". If EYOTY was a beautycontest, 409 would have won it too.
Besides having Philippe Briand onboard again, Jeannau has included some new neat features for relaxed sailing, like selftacking jib, low integrated jibtrack on the coachroof, sheets led under a deckcover to electric winches in the cockpit, This demonstrates fresh thinking.
....
Inside Sun Odyssey 409 collects even more points with inviting space, clever layout with one or two aftcabins and toilets, and a genious charttable doubling as bar.

Finishwise the 409 feels de luxe, with leatherhandles, leathercovered charttable, rounded fronts.

Under sail the boat balances a family´s needs, enough sailarea for good speed in light air and solid ruddergrip with lots of control in high winds. Even more familyplus is proper ballastratio for comfortable ride when wind picks up.

Overall Sun Odyssey 409 represents a new level on family cruising in design, sailing, inside volume, finish and value for money.

Better by design: Jeanneau have managed to make an affordable family cruiser witch looks luxurious, but not on the price tag. ...

Jeanneau has the skill to keep things simple and functional. The 409 feels like a bigger boat especially down below.
...And as opposed to the Xc where you get a lot of boat for a lot of money the Jeanneau gives just a lot of boat for the money.



NEGATIVE:

Where the layout struggles a little is in the friction of the sheet systems and in winches that are a bit underpowered fro the task.

A bit stiff on the helm, maybe. And with a bit too much friction in the rope arrangement that leads all aft.

- not fast or funny under sail, heavy at the helm.

You could argue that it feels a bit heavy and numb on the wheel but never the less I'm quite certain that Jeanneau targets their audience close to spot on.


Regarding the American market it is a bit more confusing. Brian and many call race boats to performance cruisers, some magazines call performance cruisers to relatively fast cruisers (I have seen Tartans to be called performance cruisers, as well the Jeanneau 409) so it is all very confusing. I guess that because on the American market there are much less boats than on the European market the distinctions are more difficult to make since there are not many boats on each class and there is not a clear distinction among them.

On American market you can also find still in production boats basically designed 20 years ago or more and that puts what one consider the performance of a mainstream cruiser more on the slow side, compared with European patterns.

Regards

Paulo
 
#57 ·
Paulo,

Jeanneau could also be marketing the NA market different than say the european market, in that here, ie NA, Jeanneau is using the term performace cruiser, where as in Europe, they do not fall into that catagory. So in the end, even tho I am using that term, it is correct for here, but not over there!

Marty
 
#59 ·
Paulo,

Jeanneau could also be marketing the NA market different than say the european market, in that here, ie NA, Jeanneau is using the term performace cruiser, where as in Europe, they do not fall into that catagory. So in the end, even tho I am using that term, it is correct for here, but not over there!

Marty
That's about what I was sayng;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#62 ·
A few questions for CD.

Now that you are cruising with a full load, how has it affected the performance?

Have you raised your water line?

If you plan on making longer passages, Across the Pacific, how will you store the mountain of food your crew will require?

What changes would you make for further long distance voyaging?
 
#63 ·
Sorry for the late reply to these. We had company this week and they just left.

Ok, here goes:

We have been living aboard and cruising (or modififed cruising depending on your definition), for many years now. We have taken some time off here and there, but this is not our first time living aboard, or being mobile live aboards. As such, the day we bought the boat, I had them raise the waterline three inches. We have never gotten close to that waterline, and it may have been an overkill, as even fully loaded, the top of the paint is a couple inches high.

My performance loss is kind of odd since we now are aboard FT with no address or even a dock box (this means that things we might have left in storage or in a dock box or in a car, we now take with us). I would estimate we lose about a knot in 15 kts. However, we can still get to or over hull speed, but it takes more wind (maybe 20 kts). I was motor sailing Saturday, and was were running about 8 kts, with 8.3 the high. We waived at RTB (a member here) as we sailed by him and his wife. So, I can still get pretty good speeds, but it takes more 'power' from wind or motor. Another interesting change is how we motor. I assume this is because of the higher displacement, but whereas before, I could slow the boat down quickly with the motor (like coming into a slip), I have to plan ahead a lot more now. SHe doesn't stop on a dime anymore, if that makes sense?

As it stands, we have enough food for about a month on the boat. THis assumes no outside food. That is about how we stay stocked. We stay stocked that way not because we have to or spends months at far away anchorages, but because we like a variety of things to eat on the boat and a trip to the grocery store is a real PITA (we do not have a car). We try to make frequent trips to keep her stocked up because that way I can haul the canned goods in small amounts on the bike, backpack, or cart. If you wait a week+, then the amount you need to get to restock is a lot more, more weight, and probably will cost a cab.

If we are major conservative, on the hook, we can run about two weeks on water. THis is a periodic shower and conservative clothes washing and dish washing. We can all shower conservatively, every day, for a bit over a week on what we carry comfortably. SO to cross the Atlantic or Pacific, which I have no interest in at this point, we would buy a watermaker.

I think that answered all your questions?

Brian
 
#67 ·
Brian-
"She doesn't stop on a dime anymore, if that makes sense?" More stuff equals more mass equals you need more force to accelerate it, or "un"accelerate it. So yes, your engine will need to do more work. I would guess that if the engine has enough hp, you could regain some performance by moving to a larger prop, or a different pitch. If you run the new laden weight of the boat versus a prop guide, that should give you some numbers.

And then if you install a double-decker shower, of course the hot water goes twice as far, it just isn't quite as hot when it reached the son on the lower deck.(G)
 
#68 ·
CD, Yes rain catchers. When it rains we shower, ha, ha. no several times a day, mandi style. Some of the rainstorms are so fierce we fill up in an hour or so. Hot water? Never. Too hot. The sunshowers we had needed a t shirt to keep the water from scalding us.

When we do fill up from a hose we have a big filter that gets any of the bigger stuff out. In the Phillipines we found water cascading off of cliffs, the fishermen usually had a tie up spot, so we just joined them at the watering hole.
 
#74 ·
Out here in California, the best deal you are going to get on a Jeanneau 409 is $269,000. The whole “racer-cruiser”, “performance cruiser” is just marketing speech from the builders and sail magazines. The terms are whatever you want them to be – there is no governmental or standards board definition. I’ve been cooling on the idea of the 409 lately but I still think I will go out sailing on one in the next couple of weeks. I’ll keep you posted. One thing that has me curious is the wide variety of boats that get posted to Paulo’s thread. Now, I’ve only been sailing in Germany, Norway and Great Britain, but I didn’t see the large volume of “exotic” boats that Paulo writes about. Where do I find the European version of our YRA and where can I find the results of the various regattas? All I find are the professional type races and I’m not interested in “NASCAR” results. I agree with Cruising Dad that although one can cruise in a gentrified racer, does it have the same “suitability of use” as either a purpose made cruiser or a (modified) boat from one of the production houses?
 
#76 · (Edited)
... I'll keep you posted. One thing that has me curious is the wide variety of boats that get posted to Paulo's thread. Now, I've only been sailing in Germany, Norway and Great Britain, but I didn't see the large volume of "exotic" boats that Paulo writes about. Where do I find the European version of our YRA and where can I find the results of the various regattas? All I find are the professional type races and I'm not interested in "NASCAR" results. ...
A agree with you completely on that and I suggest that sailing one day on a boat is not enough unless you have narrowed down to the precise type if boat that suits you. I have charted several boats for a week and more to find out what was the kind of boat I was interested in (sailed out others with friends or in limited test sails).

The best place to try new boats is Croatia. The importers of different boats have brand new boats or boats with one or two years that you can charter. Be aware that those boats have a huge demand and that now it will be probably too late to manage to charter one of those, at least for this summer.

For testing a RM the best place is the Atlantic coast of France. if you talk with the shipyards they will point you in the right direction.

Regarding the comparative performance of the boat you have plenty places (ORC, PHRF, LYS) that rate sailboats, (cruisers and performance cruisers) in a quite precise way. You will have a pretty good idea of the average performances of each sailboat.

Regarding to look at the race results as information the best places are races with a huge number of participants. In those most of the boats are cruising sailboats. It is better to look at European races not only because they are bigger in numbers but also because the average age of the boats is much lower.

As I said there are plenty and I post about them on "interesting boat thread" but just to give some examples, the ARC.

World Cruising Club - ARC Results

J.P. Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race - Results for the 2012 race

You have to look at real time results, not handicap.

Regards

Paulo
 
#75 ·
Brian- I am 100% on your side. Would note with many designs you give up little or nothing in vmg for the type of sailing we do and still have the benefits of displacement and ability to cruise in comfort and style. I know feeling secure and comfortable will mean we will push the boat more so passage times should be fairly close. I look at Paulo's posts and choices and know those boats are not where my wife and I would choose to live. I showed her european boats, South African boats. New Zealand boats, one offs . glass boats aluminum boats even steel boats etc. but when we boarded a sistership of our boat and then had the joy of sailing her we knew we found home. I believe once you look at a vessel as home be it for a month a year or forever the comfort factor becomes important beyond measure. I'm not talking about comfort in terms of boat motion( although that's important) but comfort in terms of a place you feel totally at home . For me this did include excellent performance and a sense my boat 'been there done that" so I need not be concerned about the integrety of the vessel. But my boat feels like a place that was built for me. All the details fix the needs of my wife and I. And it stirs my heart with beauty inside and out. I know we don't meet your definition of cruiser as part of our deal was to sell the house but keep a pied a terre somewhere but find we think alot alike.
Only disagrement with you is about the generator. Going to try and do without one. May change our mind when we go south if we find we need to run the AC alot.
 
#77 · (Edited)
Brian- I am 100% on your side. Would note with many designs you give up little or nothing in vmg for the type of sailing we do and still have the benefits of displacement and ability to cruise in comfort and style. I know feeling secure and comfortable will mean we will push the boat more so passage times should be fairly close. I look at Paulo's posts and choices and know those boats are not where my wife and I would choose to live. ....
What side? The one that says that there is only one type of cruising and voyage boat that fits all?

My side is that there are many types of voyage boats all adapted to a given type of cruising and voyaging, but covering different and specific needs. Some of them are way slower and heavier than the Catalina 400. They suit different kinds of sailors and are the perfect choice for each one of them. That's why there are a specific market for each type of long range cruisers, because long range cruisers wants them: they suit their living and sailing style but different living and sailing styles anyway.

This thread seems to be about the ones that prefer to voyage fast and enjoy sailing while they are doing that and the boats adequate to them. There are a relatively big offer of small production boats for this kind of sailors and that means that there is a lot of them.

What is your point and Brian's point? That those sailors are wrong and cannot enjoy sailing and live the way they like?

That only the way that you like to voyage and live and the boats adapted to that particular "taste" are good and adequate to long range voyage?

I confess I don't get your or Brian's point. Maybe I have understood wrongly and this thread is about the right of existence of sailors that like to voyage fast and the boats that are designed for them.

whatever you say they exist and in growing numbers, as well as the boats adapted to them. That you don't like their live style and their boats and that they are not fit to you? Big deal, that's obvious. What about you understanding that the reverse is also true: That those sailors would not be interested in a Catalina 400 as a voyage boat because it does not fit their life style, voyage style and sailing pleasure?

Regards

Paulo
 
#80 · (Edited)
Paulo posted an interesting link for the various ARC rallies. First, there are a lot of really rich folks out there and the vast majority of boats are in the $500K (USD) to $1M price range. The typical 45-65 foot Oysters, Hylas, Moodys etc. Hardly my price range (Perhaps Paulo can adopt me?). Second observation is very few of the boats in the “Interesting Boat” thread are there either. Paulo, If you have a link to Portugal’s YRA race results, I’d appreciate that as I want to see what the “common man” is racing over there.

One of the big problems we are having is one of definition. How about we use more quantitative methods in our discussion? The boats would be more comparable if we placed them side by side on a table. I have done this for my own boat as well as the 400 and 409. Please double check the numbers. For example, the Jeanneau’s keel and displacement values appear to be on the light side. I have a series of formulas that calculate all sorts of ratios so that might be of future interest.

The “fatty” 400 is a mere 5 inches wider than the Jeanneau. Another surprising dimension is the 409’s LWL is only an inch shorter than it’s LOA.

Catalina 34 MkII Catalina 400 Jeaneau 409 Aereodyne 38
LOA 34.5 40.5 40.5 37.66
LWL 29.83 30.50 39.25 34.21
Beam 11.75 13.50 13.08 13.00
Draft 5.58 6.92 6.83 7.75
Ballast 5,000 8,300 4,982 4,150
Displacement 11,950 20,500 17,328 11,250
Sail Area 528 808 773 795
I 44.0 52.7 50.9 50.8
J 13.5 15.5 14.8 14.5
P 38.6 47.0 49.2 51.8
E 12.0 17.0 16.1 16.5
Fuel 25 35 53 25
Water 59 110 87 70
Base PHRF 144 110 73 27
"Sail Away" $111,500 $179,300 $269,000 $159,000
Engine M35B Yanmar 56 Yanmar 40 Yanmar 27
 
#83 · (Edited)
Paulo posted an interesting link for the various ARC rallies. First, there are a lot of really rich folks out there and the vast majority of boats are in the $500K (USD) to $1M price range. The typical 45-65 foot Oysters, Hylas, Moodys etc.
You have to look again;) The vast majority of boats are Jeanneau, Bavaria, Beneteau. Some Pogos too and a considerable number of Lagoon by the way.

.. The boats would be more comparable if we placed them side by side on a table. I have done this for my own boat as well as the 400 and 409. Please double check the numbers. For example, the Jeanneau's keel and displacement values appear to be on the light side. I have a series of formulas that calculate all sorts of ratios so that might be of future interest.
Yes, old formulas to old boats, you can stay with them but they are useless for modern boats. Of course the Jeanneau is light compared to a Catalina, a sailboat is supposed to be light, specially if we want to have a good performance.

The jeanneau is built with an infusion process that can make it lighter an as strong as a heavier boat. About the keel weight, the weight you need on a keel has a direct relation with the weight of the boat, the draft and the keel design. The jeanneau has more draft, is lighter and has a modern bulbed keel while the Catalina has an old designed non bulbed one. You cannot make a direct comparison. You can look at sail area. Sail area is normally proportional to the boat stability.

The "fatty" 400 is a mere 5 inches wider than the Jeanneau. Another surprising dimension is the 409's LWL is only an inch shorter than it's LOA.
Fat has not to do with beam alone and sometimes has nothing to do with it. A 40class racer is hugely more beamier than any of those boats and is the opposite of a fat boat. It has to do with the hull, weight and the bow entries. When I said that the Catalina was fat I was comparing it with the RM (that has more beam than the Catalina). regarding the Jeanneau the difference is probably not so big but the Jeanneau has obviously a faster and more elegant hull.

Catalina 34 MkII PHRF 144

Catalina 400 PHRF 110

Jeaneau 409 PHRF 73

Aereodyne 38 PHRF 27

...
Here you have pertinent information regarding performance but I don't understand where yo got that PHRF for the Aerodyne 38. The numbers I got are 39 for the all carbon version and 42 for the epoxy/carbon version. Regarding the Aerodyne price you can only be joking:D: or it is an used old boat or a very, very old price...and even so.

PHRF New England - Handicapping - Base Handicaps

I love the Aerodyne, a boat designed by Rodger Martin. They were made in South Africa and now it seems it is a Finnish company (don't know if they are made there or are still in business). There are some sailors that would not mind to cruise in them but the boat is a cruiser racer with a very strong optimization for racing and the interior even if functional is a bit stark.

Probably in what regards cruising would be a more extreme boat than a J122. That is not a boat designed with voyage in mind but certainly it has the potential seaworthiness and stability to be used that way, if adapted for the job and providing the ones that would voyage in it are the kind of sailors that would chose a very light and fast boat to voyage and don't mind the spartan look and feel.

It would probably need a watermaker but the engine (and the diesel) would only be used for charging the batteries because that boat can SAIL with very light wind. Little diesel tankage would be needed.

I don't know why you bring the 34ft Catalina. It is not in the same class as the others in what regards size, stability or seaworthiness as a blue water cruiser.

The Catalina 400 only has that PHRF (100) with the deep keel. Brian's boat with a shallow keel has a PHRF of 120.

The jeanneau and the Catalina are the same type of boat. Brian says the Catalina interior is bigger and has more storage but I know that the Jeanneau 409 with two cabins has a big storage with plenty space for generator and all that stuff. The differences would not be considerable even if the storage of the Catalina can, according to Brian, be slightly bigger.

The performance is very different, a PHRF of 120 compared with a 73.

Note that I am not saying that all sailors would like more the Jeanneau. There are heavier and slower boats than the Catalina 400, specially on the American market, but obviously performance is an important point in boats with similar cruising characteristics, I mean belonging to the same market segment.

Anyway the importance of that varies with sailors, as the relative importance of having what one finds to be a nice interior and that depends in great measure of personal taste. What is important is to have a boat that we like and that is adapted to the cruising and sailing style of each one.

For me the Jeanneau 409 is not enough fun or fast to sail and don't have a traveler near the wheel. I would not have one for cruising and sailing.

Probably the Aerodyne has a cruiser interior too spartan for me (but functional and adapted to more spartan cruisers), besides it is out of my price range.

I would say that If new, regarding 40ft boats I would chose the Salona 41 (I don't like the Dehler 41 interior) and even so it would be a bit more expensive than the Jeanneau. I also like the J122 and could live with one:D but the price is also out of my reach. My boat would also be an option but also out of my range as new.

But that is just what is adapted to me, my life style and cruising style. Some would prefer faster boats for cruising (and there are some on this site with them) and most would settle for a slower boat with more interior space (more fat:D) and with more storage.

Bottom point: you have to find out first what is your budget and then see if you have money for a new boat or just an used one. if you have money for a new boat you have to see if you are limited or if you can chose and what is the scope of that choice. Then, according with the budget, you have to try to understand what type of boat will make you happy. Sometimes you only have 2 or 3 possible choices.

For that it is important to see the boat interior on a boat show and it is fundamental to sail the boat. A Catalina 400 would seem very similar to a jeanneau 409 on a boat show (with different styles) but in the water it would be a completely different boat.

All boats are different even if we can join them in groups according with speed and sailing characteristics but even so they feel differently at the wheel and that, as well as the sailing characteristics, will probably be important to you, they are certainly to me.;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#84 ·
Paulo,

Look at what George is currently sailing, and you may see, as I will swag why the C34 was brought into the comparison, ie it is what he has now! From THAT angle, certainly worth bringing up that boat model! Now truly comparing it to the other boats.....yes, I would agree, not in the same ball game. The other, being as they are all in thesame general size bracket if you will, it is worth comparing them.

I have also been saying many times over, Jeanneau's in general thru the years, are faster than catalina's. Last weekend, I literally out sailed 2 C420's and a C400. I was beating them boat for boat, much less on handicap! I'm rated a 204 non flying sails, IIRC they were in the 140-150 range NFS. My base local is 189 with flying sails, NEngland which you mentioned earlier IIRC I am a 169 or 172 or there abouts. possibly even a 159. PHRF DOES generally speaking, within regions change ratings. NE is able to do a lot of triangular courses, herein Puget Sound where I am, reaching is a good day, most of the time you are either going upwind, or down! nothing in the middle per say. My boat is 28' on deck no less. Local there is a C34 raced frequently, it is 174 IIRC with a typical local FS rating. I actually race at 195 fs, due to a smaller spin than normal.

Marty
 
#85 ·
Paulo- we are wimps and like every comfort but also like to get where we are going. Using your logic let's compare a j120 ( couldn't find pogo in NE phrf site so choose that as a "fast boat") to an outbound at phrf of 33 to 90. When cruising our average hop is ~700m so that means by phrf the j boat will arrive there 5h 15m quicker. In my life of cruising it just don't signify against the comfort, beauty and wonderful ride of my boat. In reality as my skill set rises and I become more confident I believe we'll will push the outbound harder then we would the j boat so the difference would be less. Also the livability of my boat ( comfort at anchor, maintenance etc.) is non pareil. The owners of the other cruising boats on this thread probably feel the same way about their boats.
regards
outbound
 
#86 · (Edited)
Ok, you can be wimps and like every comfort but even so there are others that need and want even more comfort, like the motion of a really heavy boat and need of more space and comfort. Some just hate heel and will chose a boat that heel very little or a multihull. Nothing wrong with that and they are right too.

No wrong here I have nothing against guys that like to voyage and sail in slow or very slow sailing boats and they sail more comfortably for sure since speed equals almost always less comfort, not only in the type of the boat but in what regards sea motion even if that can be misleading sometimes when the boat is planning or semi- planning downwind.

I also have nothing against the guys that like to cruise, sail and voyage in boats faster than the ones I prefer (and there are lots of them).

I am only pissed with guys that think that the way they look at cruising, voyage and living is the only right one and are unable to understand that the boat and lifestyle they prefer would be boring to some and uncomfortable to others.

That is obvious and I don't understand the difficulty of understanding it.

Look at the boat market: there re plenty offers of voyage boats way faster than yours on the trade winds and some are even produced in considerable numbers. That means that there are many that want and prefer faster boats for cruising and voyaging and they are so many that justifies the production of boats and not only one offs.

THAT IS A FACT: they exist, they voyage and cruise and they would not have your boat over a much faster boat. That has not to do only with function (arriving some days first on an Atlantic crossing), but mostly with the pleasure to sail and voyage on a fast sail machine, the same way that one does not have a sport car to arrive faster (there are speed limits) but for the pleasure that it gives to drive.

I am hoping that you finally understand that I find the Outbound a great cruising boat, that will satisfy some types of cruisers and voyagers but that it will not satisfy all that like to cruise and voyage. That's why there are so many types of cruising and voyage boats.

It is ridiculous to call racing boats to all cruising boats faster than the one we own or assume that they are unsuitable for cruising just because they are not fit to do that the way you or Brian do.

If some chose them as voyage and cruising boats then it is because they are fit for those sailors in what regards cruising and voyaging: this is not evident? They do actually sail, voyage and circumnavigate in them.

It is not a question of money: Fast boats are expensive.

Racing boats are boats designed exclusively for racing and when you and Brian talk of racers you are not talking about those boats but about performance cruisers, some of them never intended or designed for racing. That makes no sense.

Regards

Paulo
 
#87 ·
I’ve got a busy day so only had a chance to “skim” the messages, but I’ll try to add context to my yesterday’s message. I used the C34 as a “base boat” as I am quite familiar with it being a past national champion in that boat. I am also potentially in the market for a 40 foot boat to cruise Mexico and beyond in the next couple of years. My dilemma is it worth it to me to double/treble/quadruple my current boat cost as I enter into retirement? My C34 is a pretty capable little boat – It qualifies for the PacCup, TransPac, SHTP, and Bermuda 1-2 races so it has the “chops” IMHO for what I want to do. The question is how much comfort and performance would I get by buying a 40 footer and does it make economic sense for me. I pulled the dimensional numbers off of various sources on the internet and I am a little suspicious of several of them. My spreadsheet uses the PHRF formula to calculate that number so if the dimensional data is off, so would the PHRF number. No offense to my New England brothers, but NEYRA is highly political and they plug a lot of adjustments into their base numbers (I know, as I was also the national measurer for C34 at one time). NorCal YRA base utilizes an unadulterated formula. I thought the PHRF number for the Aerodyne was low too as we raced as a 36 rating ten years ago (I’ll see if I can find an old certificate to verify the numbers.) I will also expand my database to include a J122. I also want to put in a “true” cruising boat that is about 40 feet as a comparison (to anchor one side of the continuum.) I suggest that when someone wants to introduce a new boat into this discussion, they first post the dimensional data so I have some way of calibrating the boat in our continuum. Boats discussed that don’t have this data I’ll consider as “vaporware” and I’ll not consider or address them. I think that if we start to use more quantitative methods, we will all gain a better understanding and will be able to further the discussion.

Paulo, I was looking at the division standings for the ARC. What division should I be looking in to find the Beneteaus and Jeanneaus ?

Is there a way I can post tabular data on Sail Net? I’d like to post my expanding database.
 
#91 · (Edited)
I've got a busy day so only had a chance to "skim" the messages, but I'll try to add context to my yesterday's message. I used the C34 as a "base boat" as I am quite familiar with it being a past national champion in that boat. I am also potentially in the market for a 40 foot boat to cruise Mexico and beyond in the next couple of years. My dilemma is it worth it to me to double/treble/quadruple my current boat cost as I enter into retirement? My C34 is a pretty capable little boat - It qualifies for the PacCup, TransPac, SHTP, and Bermuda 1-2 races so it has the "chops" IMHO for what I want to do. The question is how much comfort and performance would I get by buying a 40 footer and does it make economic sense for me. I pulled the dimensional numbers off of various sources on the internet and I am a little suspicious of several of them. ...

Paulo, I was looking at the division standings for the ARC. What division should I be looking in to find the Beneteaus and Jeanneaus ?

Is there a way I can post tabular data on Sail Net? I'd like to post my expanding database.
I had a bit of the same problem as you and in fact I got an interest in understanding sailboat design on account of that. I had a 2002 Bavaria 36

http://sailingbreezes.com/sailing_breezes_current/articles/BS05/bavaria36.htm

and I had the same doubts as you but finally I decided that I wanted a more seaworthy and fast boat and one with a better upwind performance at least with the same storage space. It was not easy, the Bavaria 36 was a good boat and a fast one.

It is faster than an Oceanis 39 and probably faster than a Catalina 400 (there are 3 different Bavara 36 models, this one was the fastest of all).

After trying many boats I decided that what I wanted was a 38 to 40ft performance cruiser and ended up with a 41ft boat with those characteristics. I ended up with a 41ft because I had to choose one on the used market and that was the better pick. If new I would have bought a 38ft performance cruiser and I am sure I would be very satisfied with that boat (it had the interior space, the storage I needed, the light wind ability, the point ability and a nice cruising interior).

Regarding the Bavaria 36 I would say that this one is a 1.5K faster boat but more than that it is a boat that I can sail with less wind and as I am retired and I am not in a hurry to go anywhere that means that I normally turn the engine half an hour leaving anchorage and half an hour entering a new anchorage (just for charging batteries) and in meantime I sail . Believe it or not I go out when there are at least 2K wind making about 2k speed, but I sail all the time. This is also a boat able to make a much better VMG against the wind. not only the boat is faster as it can close much more on the wind.

Me and my wife are very satisfied, but that is just me and my wife;).

I guess you have to decide if the storage space of your present boat is enough. That was the starting point of my wife. I wanted a better sailing boat she did not want one with a less nice interior or with less storage and if possible with more.

Then you have to decide what is the sailing performance you want: Not only bigger boats are faster but regarding your boat, if performance boats, they can sail with a lot less wind.

Then you should start to try sailboats centering your decision point in what storage and performance you want and need on a sailboat. I suggest you to start by classes of boats like size and main market versus performance cruiser (the last ones have to be slightly bigger to have the same interior space of the first).

Since you say that you enjoy sailing and that actually now very well to sail and enjoy fine tuning ( past national champion) I suggest that you try performance boats. They are not all the same and since you want a voyage boat I suggest you look to boat seaworthiness also, specially in what regards stability. And then of course you have your wife's demands (if it is the case).

Not easy, but it can be a lot of fun. I sold my boat and I was two years trying new boats and charting others till I refined my choice.

I hope it helps.

Regarding the ARC:

http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S634917073956986953/ARC2012 Cruising Results by Division.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S634598188535521172/ARC 2011 Cruising Division Overall.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S634916919004722794/ARC2010 Cruising Division Results.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S634916914435162768/ARC 2009 Results by Class.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S634916908997461217/ARC 2008 Results by Division.pdf

http://www.worldcruising.com/content/S634916874918265360/ARC2007_Results_Divisions.pdf

Regards

Paulo
 
#88 ·
LOA: 44'9" Sail Area: 1083
DWL: 40'3" Water: 200gal.
Beam: 13'6" Fuel: 200gal.
Draft: 6'6"/5'6" SA/Disp: 18.75
Disp.(light): 33,000 Disp/Length: 189
Ballast:
10,000 (w/ 3500# bulb) Beam/Length: 3.3
Bridge Clearance
64' LPS (IMS) 127 degrees
In the spectrum of modern boats- moderation in all degrees. Will give sailing polar and sail plan to follow
 
#89 ·
Outbound, thanks for the data. Is this an Outbound 46? Don't forget the water tankage and engine size, as tanks and engine are probably a discrimnator for cataloging cruising boats.

My PHRF formula (which I got from the SFYRA PHRF committee doesn't calculate the Cal 40 rating correctly (albeit, it is spot on for all the Catalinas). I just might include the official SFYRA PHRF along with my calculated number.
 
#90 ·
I 59’
J 17.5’
P 52.74’
E 18.5’
sorry can't figure out how to transfer sailing polar.

Don't understand why Paulo makes inference he does. Thought seriously about building a "state of the art" high performance cruiser. Wouldn't have done so if I did not respect those vessels. I understand why some folks are drawn to the fastest thing afloat and prefer those vessels. I've owned many bikes and cars and some that were driven mostly on "track days" only. I understand the fascination with speed. I choose a boat that in the spectrum of boats currently afloat is fairly fast but clearly many boats are faster. I did a Newport to Bermuda race where the owner of the tri went through our personal kit to eliminate any excess weight ( we won). But I, like many, will sacrifice a bit of speed to not be concerned about those issues. Wife likes to do her hair and a nice hot shower is a pleasant anytime and anywhere. The issue of expense is not relevant to this decision. At $525K base boat and most going out with $100 to $200K over that Outbounds aint cheap. Phil is still taking new orders for 46s and 52s. Must be a reason. I have no problem with those making other decisions and see the merit. But it seems you have issue with the fact that Outbound is also a joy to sail in anything from ghosting to 50kts.
Not going to pick up the gauntlet anymore Paulo. We just see things differently. Guess it comes with the temperance of age.
GeorgeB. Do what's right for you. The h-ll with this thread. It hasn't gotten focused to the reasonable question you posit. If the extra money means you will have more security and joy on land keep the C34. She a sweet boat and very capable. If it's on your bucket list to cruise the world with your lady and occasional guests go for it. To return to Paulo's examples then decide is it on a Lambo, Mercedes or Landrover. Remember the Ford gets you to the same place too and aint so bad at all. Don't think you would be unhappy on anyone of these (grin).
 
#94 ·
I think some people try to draw a hard line between "racer" and "cruiser". I say, for sake of argument, that no such line can exist. I have succesfully raced a Baba 35 pilot house version. I have successfully cruised a 70' ULDB. I think it all boils down to personal sailing style and sailing skills. It drives me nuts to sail a boat with design flaws that performs poorly. I want performance first then I'll see what I can do to get the comfort and safety I need. But that's my personal style. If doing 4.5 knots to weather with the AWA at 40 degrees makes you happy then go for it. I really don't like the attitude, "I'll tell you how to have fun damn it!"

It wasn't so very long ago that the Valiant 40 was considered too radical to be a serious offshore cruising boat.

I can remember John Neale storming into my office and berating me for being so stupid as to design an offshore boat without a full keel. Now John sails a H-R with a spade rudder.


A full keel Baba 40 AIRLOOM won it's class last week in Seattle's Blakely Rock Race.
 
#96 · (Edited)
Bob, It seems you have to wait for some more years to get the "temperance of age":D

As you know Magnus Olsson died recently at the age of 64. That one never reached the age of temperance and lived a full life. His constant big smile while steering is all about what sailing is: Joy.



Certainly he had cruised but I refuse to believe that he had done so in a boring boat. I just can't imagine that.

Sailing and cruising are separated things, cruising can be made through sailing but different people value differently sailing and cruising. That is the reason that different sailors have different "ideal" cruising boats.
 
#97 ·
Paulo:
I'm 66 years old. I'm getting wiser.

For you guys sailing is a hobby. For me it's my business and has been since I ws 21 years old. My hobby is hi-end stereo gear, Hi-Fi gear. I'm an audiophile or as we audiophiles say, I'm an "audiofool". I have spent $3,500 on speaker wires, twice. If I told you how much the cartridge (needle) on my turntable cost you would not believe me. In my hobby we are as passionate about the elements as you guys are about sailing. We rage horrible word wars over which is better,tubes or solid state. We call each other vile names. In the end it all comes down to personal preference, both can be very good, I own both, tubes in the office and ss in the living room. But we still like to attack each other and call each other idiots if someone disagrees. But it's best to keep in mind we all love hi-fi/ sailing and we all enjoy it in our own personal way.

Yeah, I read about Magnus dieing. I'm not keen on death. Sad people are left in the wake. They say time heals all. I say BS.
 
#99 · (Edited)
...

Yeah, I read about Magnus dieing. I'm not keen on death. Sad people are left in the wake. They say time heals all. I say BS.
I was not talking about his dead I was celebrating his life. I believe he will not die in the heart of those that appreciated his live and I have.

In what regards Hi fi I have advance acustics and monitor audio, that's what my money can afford but I am a fan.

I don't believe that you besides having a job as boat designer are not passionate about your work. I hope you are.

I am not attacking anynobody. I don't think that there is a right way to cruise or a right cruiser boat. Different people has different tastes, life styles and sailing pleasures.

Each Sailor if he cruises and sails enough boats will discover his perfect cruising boat (even if he does not have money to have it) and that perfect cruising boat will be different according to the sailing and life profile of the cruiser.

That is what I have been saying but not what others have been saying and I am not attacking them. I consider them friends. Just a difference of opinion regarding the possibility of a performance cruiser (that Brian calls racer) to be the perfect cruising boat for some...not for all.

Have you seen the title of this thread....that's about that, the possibility or impossibility of that reality.

Regards

Paulo
 
#98 · (Edited)
Bob- as one who at one time has bought more gold bits( hope they don't find super cooled wires or some unobtainable is better) for the sound system then my wife and reconstructed a room to anchor the speakers I feel your pain. Fortunately, with age has come frequency loss but the passion to sail started in my teens and I can't shake it. Guess I'm intemperate too. Don't remember calling Paulo nasty names. Guess you hang in tougher circles.
On the business side- really like the version you did of the Outbound 46. Makes a lot of sense.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top