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  #41  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

Hellosailor, now you've gone from passive aggressive to damn near obnoxious. If you had the LEAST understanding of how the person to person trips work, you'd understand that they require a full time, call it 'cultural', component - i.e. meeting with, Cubans, in some fashion in which you are learning about the country, its people and its culture and history, and so on. I thought that had been made clear, but if not, perhaps now you understand.
The only way for these trips to work is to introduce that component - it's how the Smithsonian does it, it's how the motorcycle tours work, and it's how this program will work. In fact, it's how EVERY single person to person tour operates - them are the rules.
I'm well aware of the relevance of politics to this issue btw. You might try to google some of the articles I've written on the topic, in SAIL Magazine for example.
Jon Eisberg's articles are, indeed, well done and worth reading.
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  #42  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

I must get the abridged version of SAIL, I didn't see any articles by canucksailorguy, so I have no idea what you may have written. [Later: Oh, you must be Captain Wally? Last article, not video, in 2010?]

Meeting a fisherman when you dock and cast off, that's not quite a "cultural" component of a trip. Going to his daughter's wedding or his son's softball game, that'd be cultural exchange.

You can call me all the names you please, but I'm just taking the words I know you've written--here--at their face value. If you're running a cultural exchange, don't say you're running sailing charters.

Feel free to game the system, but that's your own rope you're hanging from. Maybe I just don't understand what a simple "sailing charter" is.

Last edited by hellosailor; 04-20-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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  #43  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

No one is gaming the system, and no one is hanging from any rope - it's how the program works. You set up an itinerary that meets the requirements, seek approval for it, and then promote and sell it to those interested.
The way this is set up, just 'meeting' people is a part of the cultural exchange portion - and, if you think of it, it makes sense. Meeting fishermen out at anchorage, trading for lobster or fish with them, talking back and forth about what our lives are about - that's a cultural exchange. When 'Joe', in Cayo Levisa, spent an afternoon repairing my outboard, and I got to see the challenges they labour under to accomplish what was not a particularly complex job due to the difficulties Cuba faces from the embargo - that's a cultural exchange. And, fyi, it's neither realistic nor possible to 'schedule' a kid's baseball game or a local's wedding into a tour - for that, you have to meet the people and then wing it. Opportunities like that happen everywhere, including on docks.
You clearly have NO idea what life in Cuba is about, or how very different it is from life in the US, or from your notion of what life in Cuba actually is based on your earlier remarks.
One of the goals of the person to person program is to facilitate understanding of the culture - and culture, ipso facto, comprises every facet of life. For example, I learned a great deal about the difficulties Cuba and Cubans face just watching Joe repair my outboard. That includes the difficulties of repairing an American made item due to the embargo, to the fact that Cuban stores don't sell dog food - because that's how Joe wanted to be paid, in kibble from my pup's stores, for his wife's dog. He also asked if I could bring him a stroller (can't buy them in Cuba) for his soon to be first born child on my next trip (I arranged for a boat I knew going that way some months later to bring him one). I also learned that the things we cast away - half empty tubes of glue, old worn out alternators, elderly and worn tools - all have value in Cuba, and I learned why. All of it was fascinating, and yet it would have been impossible to put any of it on an itinerary, which is why the casual meetings with Cubans can sometimes be the most rewarding, in terms of understanding their culture and society.
I'm making a very strong effort to present this to you so you can see why and how this program is important, and how it can be beneficial to all, Cubans and Americans. Hopefully, I'm making it clear to you.
The sailing part of this charter is meant to attract a particular market, just as the motorcycle trip charter mentioned in another post attracts that crowd, or the museum sponsored charters attract that particular interest group. It's fascinating to indulge in your passion as a way and a means to discover another culture and it leads to discoveries and understandings that are relevant to what is important in your own life.
Because it's Cuba, it cannot possibly be 'just a simple charter', at least, not yet. And even if it were, sailors charter in new places in part to discover what those places are all about. At least I and others I know do - perhaps you're different?
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Last edited by canucksailorguy; 04-20-2013 at 05:31 PM. Reason: cuz
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  #44  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

"You clearly have NO idea what life in Cuba is about,"
Why, because I think they have softball games and weddings? You mean, Fidel lied to me, and they don't have these things?
And why do you think I don't know the value of repairing and re-using broken things? Does Cuba differ from Appalachia or anyplace else in the world that way? You don't see me buying pint bottles of brand-named waters, do you? Your assumptions are totally unfounded, and Cuba has no unique claims to poverty.
I didn't say chartering wasn't about exploring, but we both know that when you are charting, you are in the splendid isolation of the boat for perhaps ten hours every day. If you are starting a "cultural" exchange by blocking off most of your day in isolation, you're not on a cultural exchange. That's very much like the professional "continuing education" conferences that used to book holiday resorts or golf courses, where the trip was being taken as a business expense or for the ed credits, except, folks were just out to sun and play golf. Our IRS hasn't been that dumb in years, I can't see the State Department being that dumb these days either. You might get it by them, but let's be honest, that's still gaming the system.
If I wanted a cultural exchange I could go work on a kibbutz. And you could set up guest programs working in the cane fields, or on fishing boats. Chartering? Ah, no, the hours don't add up. Now, mixed racing in one-design boats and learning Cuban maritime traditions, that might be cultural exchange. Waving bah-bye and going sailing for the day?
Gonna be real inconvenient for you, if you tweak the tiger one too many times and they stop allowing you to enter US waters, isn't it? They tend to get PO'd when you play them for fools too openly.
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  #45  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

Can you guys take this crap to OT / Politics?
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  #46  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

@ blowinstink - I've tried really really hard to keep this on sailing, and the potential of chartering in Cuba. Sorry about what's happened here, since it seems some people want a fight.
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  #47  
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

@ hello sailor - I've tried really really hard to be respectful, to you and to the other members of this site by not responding to you as you have shown us you deserve. People who know me know I don't put up with much crap, and I've put up with a substantial amount of it from you today.
You seem determined to misconstrue, misunderstand and misinterpret whatever I say (EDIT - personal attack removed - Faster)
End of discussion. I'll respond and answer questions to anyone who wants to conduct a civil discussion on the subject. My apologies for what has gone on.
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Last edited by Faster; 04-21-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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  #48  
Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksailorguy View Post
@ hello sailor - I've tried really really hard to be respectful, to you and to the other members of this site by not responding to you as you have shown us you deserve. People who know me know I don't put up with much crap, and I've put up with a substantial amount of it from you today.
You seem determined to misconstrue, misunderstand and misinterpret whatever I say.
End of discussion. I'll respond and answer questions to anyone who wants to conduct a civil discussion on the subject. My apologies for what has gone on.

Interesting way of apologizing .

I have no dog in this fight, however and apology after a lambasting personal attack is very disingenuous.

You have taken this to a completely different unecessary level. Personal attacks aren't acceptable

please post with a little more respect if you wish people to read. Don't expect your posts to be accepted as gospel either. Take you anger elsewhere

Thanks for anticipated cooperation
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Last edited by Faster; 04-21-2013 at 09:41 AM.
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  #49  
Old 04-21-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

Wow Politics/emotions aside, a large reason for our boat is to see this wonderful island before capitalization. Reading others stories increases our longing. canucksailorguy we are with you.
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  #50  
Old 04-21-2013
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Re: Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

From chef2sail's comments, I realize that my remarks may have been misconstrued. I was not being disingenuous in my remarks, I was apologizing to the readers of this thread
I was not, in any way, apologizing to Hellosailor.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
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Last edited by Faster; 04-21-2013 at 12:24 PM.
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