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Will USCG fly over Cuba airspace?

10K views 84 replies 21 participants last post by  Group9 
#1 ·
Just wondering if USCG can be able fly over the Cuba airspace for a S&R mission on the other side island in Caribbean sea ???
 
#3 ·
dawg, I believe that would be called an "unauthorized military incursion" aka "an act of war" unless the USCG called ahead and asked permission on humanitarian grounds.

Commercial air traffic flying over at 35,000 feet? Very different from helos within stone-throwing distance.
 
#4 ·
Yeah, that sucks. Cuba is a big island, flying around takes a long time.

It is about time that U.S. should change its policy towards Cuba. I heard lot of good things from those who have visited there. I want to sail over there. Last year, I was just less than 1.5 nm from Cabo San Antonio, very quiet and desolate.
 
#8 ·
Yeah, that sucks. Cuba is a big island, flying around takes a long time.

It is about time that U.S. should change its policy towards Cuba. I heard lot of good things from those who have visited there. I want to sail over there. Last year, I was just less than 1.5 nm from Cabo San Antonio, very quiet and desolate.
Yes, Cuba is a marvelous place, well worth seeing... However, while there are numerous compelling reasons why our long-standing policy deserves to be consigned to the trash bin, I'm not sure that better enabling the USCG to rescue yachties to the south of the island deserves to be anywhere near the top of the list... (grin)

Little reason you can't sail to Cuba today, just find yourself some Canadian crew, or anyone holding a non-US passport, to 'host' your trip...

Or, barring that, you could always ask Beyonce & Jay-Z if they'd like to go back... (grin)



 
#5 ·
Commercial flights go over Cuba all the time.
Fly to Grand Cayman from Miami and you go right over the island. Pretty amazing view from up there. The spine of the island is a mountainous jungle.
Not certain about CG helos but I'm sure CG aircraft can transit the airspace. Why would Cuba object to US hurricane hunter aircraft?

As for "unauthorized military incursion" what about Guantanamo Bay???
Our military flies there all the time.
 
#20 ·
I've flown into Guantanamo on several occassions. There is a narrow corridor that we fly in to get to the base. They will intercept US Government aircraft that approach Cuba that are not in that corridor.

I've never been on a flight that has been intercepted by Cuban fighters, but I know people who have been.
 
#11 ·
I was there in 1958, just before everything was shut down. Havana was a jumpin' town to say the least. From what I've heard from Canadian friends that have been there in the past couple years Havana is essentially a ghost town in comparison to back then.

When I was in Guantanamo Bay the following year, no one was allowed to leave the Naval Base and go to Havana. Diving at Officer's Beach, which was on the base, was awesome. Underwater visibility back then was well in excess of 100 feet, spearfishing for monster grouper and yellowtail snapper was beyond your wildest dreams, and the local beer was called "Hatuey." It sold for .15 cents a bottle back then, and it was really strong. Today it sells for $8 for a six-pack and is brewed somewhere in the U.S..



Gary :cool:
 
#12 ·
Gitmo is LEASED to the US under treaty, so access to it cannot be compared to access to any part of Cuba. Gitmo is US sovereign soil, the same as the land under any US international embassy, it is not part of Cuba.

As to why anyone would not want US hurricane hunters flying in their sovereign airspace...does the name Gary Powers mean anything to you? The US has admitted to more than 50 illegal uncursions into Soviet airspace, illegal by all standards including our own, during the Cold War years. Including Powers, which Kennedy publicly swore was a weather observation flight, all the way until Krushchev showed the crash remains to the world. (The U2 was supposed to be blown to smithereens, the smithereen-making-equipment supposedly failed.)

Besides, the Haitians and Dominicans can respond faster down there. (What, who's laughing?)

I think we also really insulted Fidel when we refused his generous offer of medical aid to New Orleans after Katrina.
 
#14 ·
The misinformation on who and how one can travel to Cuba is always remarkable. Some propagate it intentionally, others are outdated, others spread rumor. Here are the official answers, some of which changed over the last couple of years. Travel information is in the middle of the page.

Cuba Sanctions

The most common cause for confusion are stories about people that get away with it, rather than actually comply with the law. It has eased up a little bit, but it's still very difficult. If what you're doing smells like a scam, it is.

If you don't like the law, vote for people that will change it.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Some of that information appears to be somewhat outdated... The prohibition on prepaid package tours, for example, is dated from 12 years ago...

Bottom line is, ANY AMERICAN citizen can legally visit Cuba today...

It's simply a matter of how much, and to whom, you're willing to pay for the 'privilege':

Overview

Travel to Cuba with Smithsonian Journeys in 2013 and take part in an immersive People-to-People experience. During our specially designed nine-day program, you'll learn about this enigmatic island nation's fascinating culture through firsthand contact with Cuban artists, musicians, students, teachers, environmentalists, and others who are eager to exchange views with you on Cuban contemporary life. Explore the World Heritage site of Old Havana, where you'll learn about the ongoing preservation of the city's architecture. Meet artists and writers and experience Ernest Hemingway's legacy as well as authentic Cuban rumba rhythms. You'll meet with Afro-Cuban spiritual leaders, park rangers at a bio-reserve, and traditional farmers. This People-to-People Cultural Exchange is permitted by a license from the U.S. Department of the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control.

Starting at $5,880


Travel to Cuba | Smithsonian Journeys
 
#17 ·
dawg, oddly enough the DOS OFAC guide says that you don't need specific permission to visit a close relative (3 generations) who is a Cuban national. Doesn't say a word about dead or alive so "I'm going to visit my grandfather, I've never met him" might actually be all you need to say.

Could be worth looking into, because visiting family gravesites isn't on the slim list of allowed reasons, but the rules don't say anything about the relatives having to be living.
 
#22 ·
It is a good idea, but I don't know if I have any proof of my claim. My Grandfather left for Cuba shortly after my father was born the 20'a. He went back home five years later and took my oldest uncle with him for Cuba again. He died in Havana when my father was 11 yo. My family lost contact with my uncle during the war. My father reestablished communication in the 70's. During the massive exodus of Cubans to America in the 70's, my uncle refused to move to America. I was told that he might have a "wife" in Havana. :laugher.

So I may be meeting with my cousins in Havana :)
 
#18 ·
When I was stationed at Guantanamo Bay in the 90's, we had a bad plane crash where the surviving member of the flight crew (civilian flight - it was mail if i recall) had to be flown immediately to the burn unit in Miami. At that time, Wash DC had to request permission from Cuba to allow the medical airlift to fly over Cuba in a direct route to Miami. Those kinds of things happened from time to time, and each time a request had to be made.

I don't know how it goes today, but at that time all flights to / from Gitmo had to fly around with the exception of the emergency requests I mentioned. The Coasties there were not allowed to violate Cuban airspace, either.

That was twenty years ago. I have no idea what the regs are these days.
 
#25 ·
I was a navigator on a Coast Guard C130 and Cuba is very protective of their airspace. Violating it will be a MIG photo op! :)

The way the runways in Guantanamo were setup required a really tight turn in order to stay on the US side. It was amazing to see the Airforce Galaxy make this turn and quickly land. Even on a C130, it was entertaining at times.

One of our pilots suffered an eye injury from a Cuban laser when landing. Ended his career.

Cuba is beautiful, the government is bad and the people suffer terribly - it's sad. Not that this bothers anyone outside the US that takes advantage of cheap vacations to be had. BTW, the money skips over the "regular" Cubans and is directed to the Communist Party elitists. Even in poor countries there are wealthy people. The wealthy are picked by the elite ruling class in Cuba, you can't earn your wealth.
 
#26 ·
I agree that if our goal is to bring capitalism and freedom to Cuba, we are going about it in a very strange way.

I can't think of any better way to show Cubans how poor a form of government that communism is, than to flood them with tons of middle class American tourists who will spend more in one week than most Cubans make in one year.
 
#27 ·
I agree that if our goal is to bring capitalism and freedom to Cuba, we are going about it in a very strange way.
Pretty sure that's not the first goal there. We are on friendly terms with all sorts of Monarchies, Constitutional Monarchies and the sort.

I can't think of any better way to show Cubans how poor a form of government that communism is, than to flood them with tons of middle class American tourists who will spend more in one week than most Cubans make in one year.
Ironically, the places that I've felt the most resentment in the world are where locals are poor or repressed.
 
#29 ·
For what it is worth ...

We just spent great two weeks in Cuba and loved it. ( We do not live in the country that most of your live in so there were no legal issues.)

Super people, great SCUBA, did some fun sailing. And yes - we are going back for sure.

At the place we stayed for four days in Havana, a group of six "twenty something folks" arrived and stayed one night while we were there. They were from the country that most of you live. I asked them how they got there, there answer was "Through Toronto"

'nough said, I guess.

Our trip to Cuba
 
#30 ·
I truly wish that Minne would stop declaiming on Cuba, it gets tiresome having to constantly correct him. Example:
I know its ridiculous, but they are allowing "cultural" tours, specifically and individually sanctioned by the Treasury dept to go and anyone can do this, if they have the money. However, getting one of those tours sanctioned is not easy, not frequent and it takes much more than a mom and pop travel agency to do it. i.e. The Smithsonian you referenced.
Completely and entirely wrong. I am currently working with two American women (i.e. a very small business) who did specialized Cuban tours licensed by the OFAC under the general license provisions (cultural, religious, sports, journalism, etc.). They recently received a 'person to person' license to conduct tours. Granted, it wasn't easy, but numerous travel agencies are now licensed to conduct these tours in Cuba. Any American wishing to pay the freight can go, just keep in mind these are not 'bar and beach' tours - you will have an itinerary and it will be a busy one. That's mandatory for these tours.
Anyhow, we hope to be able to offer sailing charters in Cuba, available to any American wishing to join us. The charter itinerary will offer a couple of days sailing out of Cienfuego, plus time in Havana, Marina Hemingway, Trinidad and/or Santiago doing the person to person thing. We also hope to be able to hook up with some Cuban dinghy sailors in Matanzas and perhaps have a small regatta with them there. Plans are far from final, but anyone interested can pm me.
 
#32 ·
I truly wish that Minne would stop declaiming on Cuba, it gets tiresome having to constantly correct him.
That's certainly the pot calling the kettle black. You were once encouraging the fake foriegn sponsorship scam in an early contribution here. I'm glad you've changed your approach and are applying for a license. I posted the actual link to the US rules on Cuba.

I am currently working with two American women (i.e. a very small business) who did specialized Cuban tours licensed by the OFAC under the general license provisions (cultural, religious, sports, journalism, etc.). They recently received a 'person to person' license to conduct tours.
I'll stand corrected that it takes a large organization.

Granted, it wasn't easy.......
Although, this was actually my point, not the specificity of the organization.

----------

You certainly know by now, as we've crossed swords on this many time, that I'm entirely fine with legal visits to Cuba, for those inclined. What ticks me off are those that encourage the foreign port of departure or sponsorship scams.
 
#31 ·
Here's another bogey -
Cuba is beautiful, the government is bad and the people suffer terribly - it's sad. Not that this bothers anyone outside the US that takes advantage of cheap vacations to be had. BTW, the money skips over the "regular" Cubans and is directed to the Communist Party elitists. Even in poor countries there are wealthy people. The wealthy are picked by the elite ruling class in Cuba, you can't earn your wealth.
The Cuban people are, by and large, poor. However, to say they suffer terribly isn't entirely accurate. They are a very happy people, they are fed and housed by the state, and their health care, although not great, is also paid for.
As for wealth in Cuba - Raoul Castro has opened up opportunities for Cubans to start their own small businesses - in home restaurants, driving one of the ancient American cars as a cab, etc. These people are starting to realize that they can get ahead. Also, Cubans working in tourism do well from tips, etc., and many highly educated Cubans - lawyers, teachers, etc., opt to work in tourism for that reason.
Finally, Cubans with American family often receive money and goods from their families, allowing them to live better than the average Cuban. While these three groups do not approach the wealth of the Castro brothers - who live in immense estates just a short distance from Marina Hemingway - in my opinion, the changes in levels of wealth amongst average Cubans will, in the long run, be the death of the Communist system there.
Will that change Cuba in other ways? Not necessarily - take a look at China, which has opted for capitalism while continuing rigid state control of everything else. That seems to be the way Raoul is taking Cuba. Time will tell.
 
#35 ·
Here's another bogey -
The Cuban people are, by and large, poor. However, to say they suffer terribly isn't entirely accurate. They are a very happy people, they are fed and housed by the state, and their health care, although not great, is also paid for.
As for wealth in Cuba - Raoul Castro has opened up opportunities for Cubans to start their own small businesses - in home restaurants, driving one of the ancient American cars as a cab, etc. These people are starting to realize that they can get ahead. Also, Cubans working in tourism do well from tips, etc., and many highly educated Cubans - lawyers, teachers, etc., opt to work in tourism for that reason.
Finally, Cubans with American family often receive money and goods from their families, allowing them to live better than the average Cuban. While these three groups do not approach the wealth of the Castro brothers - who live in immense estates just a short distance from Marina Hemingway - in my opinion, the changes in levels of wealth amongst average Cubans will, in the long run, be the death of the Communist system there.
Will that change Cuba in other ways? Not necessarily - take a look at China, which has opted for capitalism while continuing rigid state control of everything else. That seems to be the way Raoul is taking Cuba. Time will tell.
Quoted from the old Pravda?

"they are fed and housed by the state"

The last trip my brother took down there, he stayed in the house of one of the Cubans. There were no windows in the house, and they only had electricity for a few hours a day. But, they couldn't use it because all of their outlets were burned out and they couldn't get any more. For a bus to take kids to church, they were using an old dump truck that the kids would ride in. It didn't even have working headlights. Almost no one had a working car. The whole yard was fenced to raise pigs to eat and he said the smell was unbelievable most of the time.

The last night he was there, he stayed in a hotel, that although run down, was much nicer than where he had been staying. There, he met dozens of foreigners, who were staying there and going to the beaches, who were sure they were seeing the real Cuba.
 
#33 ·
You were once encouraging the fake foriegn sponsorship scam
I've never encouraged it. I've noted that people do use it, and that it has drawbacks, such as convincing the OFAC that it's legit.
As for the rules, even the CBP doesn't enforce them, or enforces them haphazardly and without proper knowledge. I've seen this happen more than once, and with people from various countries as well as myself. There is NO coherent policy vis a vis cruisers going to or coming from, Cuba.
 
#36 ·
Quoted from the old Pravda?
I didn't say it was a paradise, and how you see something depends largely on one's attitude. The Cubans don't necessarily see how they live as suffering. That's not to say they wouldn't want better than they have - of course they do, but since everyone they know is in the same circumstance, it's not as bad as it might be.
Things like non working headlights, burned out outlets, etc. are only suffering for those who have know better, i.e. those in first world countries.
You make the common mistake of applying your personal sensibilities to a situation in which they do not apply.
 
#54 ·
I didn't say it was a paradise, and how you see something depends largely on one's attitude. The Cubans don't necessarily see how they live as suffering. That's not to say they wouldn't want better than they have - of course they do, but since everyone they know is in the same circumstance, it's not as bad as it might be.
Things like non working headlights, burned out outlets, etc. are only suffering for those who have know better, i.e. those in first world countries.
You make the common mistake of applying your personal sensibilities to a situation in which they do not apply.
Are you sure that's not the pot calling the kettle black? You like going to Cuba, and you really like the prices, but, you don't like thinking too much about why that is, so you try and convince yourself that the Cubans really are better off the way they are made to live, than the way they would like to live.

Whatever it takes to make you feel good about going there, I guess.
 
#37 ·
canuck, if Americans on a legitimate cultural (etc) visit have such busy agendas set up that they have to comply with, how are you going to justify sailing charters, which are in essence a day booked full of idle time, on the same basis?

And I note that your plans are still pending, not approved, so there is no guarantee that the US will agree with you and approve them at all. You also speak of the two women you're working with as having had trips, in the past tense, which begs to ask why they stopped or were stopped.

Cuba may be a people's paradise, but somehow, someone keeps generating enough desparation that they keep launching rafts hoping to reach America. Or perhaps you think the Marielista exodus was also just Fidel throwing out the trash, and that America got totally conned on that one too?

Would the Cubans let you sponsor tours of America? What would you charge, two pigs and a chicken?
 
#38 ·
bit of passive aggressive there, hellosailor? Ok - to answer you.
There will be a marine biologist on board the boat, plus we have the interactions at the docks, and with fishermen. We expect that to fulfill the cultural aspect on the sailing days, but yes, it has to be approved yet.
The women still operate trips - no past tense about it. The new person to person license is a new development for them. No need to attempt to infer anything out of line there, which the tone of your question implies.
I won't trouble to answer the questions in your last two paragraphs. You're simply looking for an argument based on your ideological preferences and this isn't the forum for that, is it?
As I noted before, for those who are interested in sailing in Cuba - this will be an entirely legal way to do it, and to discover for yourself the truths about this fascinating country.
 
#40 ·
canuck, you are the one who said your hope was to offer "sailing charters" in Cuba. Now you are saying there will be a marine biologist aboard the boat. So, what? you're turning a sailing charter into a marine research expedition? Making it into an educational experience? That's a different pitch. (Or the Doc Ford cover story.) Whether it works or not, it is not the simple "sailing charter" you proposed. Are nature tours or nature hikes in the forest approved as a legitimate educational trip for Americans?

You may not think politics or history are relevant here, but politics is the only reason there's any question about whether US military aircraft, or civilians, can enter Cuban territory. That's what it all comes back to.
 
#41 ·
Hellosailor, now you've gone from passive aggressive to damn near obnoxious. If you had the LEAST understanding of how the person to person trips work, you'd understand that they require a full time, call it 'cultural', component - i.e. meeting with, Cubans, in some fashion in which you are learning about the country, its people and its culture and history, and so on. I thought that had been made clear, but if not, perhaps now you understand.
The only way for these trips to work is to introduce that component - it's how the Smithsonian does it, it's how the motorcycle tours work, and it's how this program will work. In fact, it's how EVERY single person to person tour operates - them are the rules.
I'm well aware of the relevance of politics to this issue btw. You might try to google some of the articles I've written on the topic, in SAIL Magazine for example.
Jon Eisberg's articles are, indeed, well done and worth reading.
 
#42 · (Edited)
I must get the abridged version of SAIL, I didn't see any articles by canucksailorguy, so I have no idea what you may have written. [Later: Oh, you must be Captain Wally? Last article, not video, in 2010?]

Meeting a fisherman when you dock and cast off, that's not quite a "cultural" component of a trip. Going to his daughter's wedding or his son's softball game, that'd be cultural exchange.

You can call me all the names you please, but I'm just taking the words I know you've written--here--at their face value. If you're running a cultural exchange, don't say you're running sailing charters.

Feel free to game the system, but that's your own rope you're hanging from. Maybe I just don't understand what a simple "sailing charter" is.
 
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