Angry at my surveyor.... - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree27Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 04-18-2013
pdqaltair's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Posts: 2,080
Thanks: 1
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 6
pdqaltair is on a distinguished road
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

A few thoughts from a 30-year sailor and API licensed inspector of large oil tanks.There are many concepts in common that have not been discussed. The items seemed pretty reasonable.

1. Whether soft wood is a standard (may not be as my understanding is that they are construction standards and not suitability for use standards) is semantics. He has to evaluate suitability for service.

2. In general, if I do not use VERY stern wording in inspection reports, the advice is ignored. Thus, if it is serious I require that the tank is immediately removed from service. If it is a maintenance item, I require that the maintenance is performed and if important, require that they pay for a re-inspection (they can use another inspector). Same with car inspections.

3. "We're watching that" is the mother of all cop-outs in many cases. Yes, they are watching it fall apart and will spend the money when it fails. No, perhaps not this sailor, but he can only inspect what he sees. An inspector cannot give such comments much weight.

4. I have to assume worst-case stresses. You could put the boat on a bar just outside your home marina. Additionally, an inspector should have FAR more exposure to actual failures. When I state that the corrosion on a tank is excessive or that a weld is not suitable, it is because I have seen that failure BOTH in a code book and in a tank that has failed.

5. He is not inspecting the condition just at the time of his visit; he has to make some educated guesses about the condition over the next 5-10 years. He wants to prevent failure before the next survey, not just next month. I will fail tanks for conditions that could become serious with 20 years, depending on the element of the tank. So soft wood is clearly something that will be a problem within 5 years.

When you get your inspection license you sign a sheet of paper that makes you legally responsible for the quality of your inspection. I carry errors and omissions insurance for that reason, though I have not had a claim. If I ding you for a missing item and you provide evidence it is there, I cheerfully retract that comment (though I wish you had taken the time to join me in the field to review my findings before the report is issued--generally we don't get paid for time wasted on revisions).

---


Sorry if that sounds severe, but I don't see how the surveyor was in error. Every item seemed reasonable. That you did not know they did not meet code is neither here nor there; I get that all the time, I believe it is generally honest, but it still must be corrected.
__________________
(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

"Well, I just climb up to them."

by Joe Brown, English rock climber




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 04-18-2013
sailvayu's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Wilmington, NC, for now
Posts: 137
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 2
sailvayu is on a distinguished road
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Yes there are good and bad surveyors just like any other business. Yes we do have standards to adhere to.
Surveyors have to be careful I when I do a per-purchase survey the buyer wants to know what is wrong and that is what he is paying for. If i miss something I will hear about it. Most of the time I save them more than my fee in reduced paying price due to the findings. Then when they buy the boat they call me and say "You wrote up so many things I cannot get insurance!" So what do we do?
For insurance surveys we have to place a value on the boat, If we miss something and the boat sinks guess who the insurance company is going to come after with a team of on staff lawyers looking to get their money back?
Most surveyors do not make enough in a year to pay all the costs we have to keep our professional credentials and pay the rent.
True professionals have to compete with the retired cop who likes boats and thinks it is fun to poke around in other peoples boats and charges half of what the pros charge.
I know we are not the most liked folks around the broker hate us because we find problems the buyer does not like us because we find problems on the boat of their dreams, the seller does not like us because we find flaws in their perfect boat and those getting insurance do not like us because we add extra expense and make them fix things.
But just last week a client paid me and extra 100 because I found a major flaw in the boat he was getting ready to buy, I saved him an easy 15k. And the guy who hired me for an insurance survey thanked me when I pointed out both the from motor mounts were broken and it was getting ready too cause him a very expensive repair. It can be a thankless job but for those of us that consider ourselves professionals we try to do the best we can while dodging law suites.
To the OP I would think a calm phone call to your surveyor would clear up the wording.
For those needing to hire a surveyor I would say when you call do not only ask how much they charge, remember you get what you pay for, ask questions ask about their background and get to know them a bit. A 5 min phone call will tell you a lot.
amarinesurveyor likes this.
__________________
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 04-18-2013
barefootnavigator's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Salish Sea
Posts: 547
Thanks: 22
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 3
barefootnavigator is on a distinguished road
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

For what its worth I am a long time broker and love hardened surveyors. Sure I have lost many deals but its not the surveyors fault its the sellers fault. As a broker my number one duty is to find the perfect boat for my client. I personally inspect each boat before my client writes an offer so they don't waste 1500 bucks on a survey process that turns into a dead deal, after a purchase price is agreed on then we bring in a professional. I recently left my company because my standards were too high for the company and I got tired of fighting it. I got tired of haring the term your not a yacht broker your a salesman. As far as I'm concerned I'm a consultant and would never lie or hold anything back just to earn a commission. I have satisfied clients who have safely sailed their boats all over the world. One time got in a huge argument with a client when I would write an offer for him on what was clearly the wrong boat for his proposes, three years later he called me and thanked me fro mexico for finding him the perfect boat. I get paid to do a job just as an honest surveyor does. You sound like an awesome surveyor sailvayu.
StormBay and joebeach like this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by barefootnavigator; 04-18-2013 at 07:37 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 04-18-2013
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,603
Thanks: 67
Thanked 178 Times in 174 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

A side thought... are there cases where a surveyor missed a crucial item, with an incident as a result for which he/she was actually found and held liable?
davidpm likes this.
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 04-18-2013
barefootnavigator's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Salish Sea
Posts: 547
Thanks: 22
Thanked 20 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 3
barefootnavigator is on a distinguished road
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Make mistakes? sure why not, humans make mistakes all the time. Held liable, sounds like a long shot. DO you know anybody who has gotten 100% on every test they have taken. You have to remember your not buying the space shuttle. Every boat owner needs to understand that boat need constant maintenance, and they need to do their do diligence. They survey is a starting point and gives you a fair assessment and a list to work from, that's all.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #36  
Old 04-18-2013
sailvayu's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Wilmington, NC, for now
Posts: 137
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 2
sailvayu is on a distinguished road
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

It is rare but it does happen.
More often a suit is filed and the surveyor wins but the cost to defend is enormous.
Example: surveyor surveys a boat on the Chesapeake, buyer buys the boat takes it to a inland lake and gets fined for gray water discharge. Sues the surveyor for not telling him that gray water is not allowed on the lake he took it to. surveyor wins at a cost of 3k
The only time I had a issue the buyer came back to me 2 years after he bought the boat for a problem that came up long after the survey and after more than a 2000 mile trip without problems. Wanted me to pay as if the survey was a warranty that the boat would never break. Never went to court because no lawyer would take his case as they knew it would get thrown out.
I am sure there are cases where the surveyor was negligent as I have seen some really bad surveys myself. I have seen some surveys that were so inaccurate I wondered if the survey ever really saw the boat. I know one surveyor that will do a insurance survey just from the dock never sets foot on the boat.
I will be interested to hear some other stories.
davidpm likes this.
__________________
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 04-18-2013
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,603
Thanks: 67
Thanked 178 Times in 174 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailvayu View Post
...
I will be interested to hear some other stories.
Me too... I know that the last two insurance surveys were a bit of a joke, as mentioned I mostly dictated it and payed well for that privilige. A pretty easy bit of coin - worked out to about $600/hr and I did the bulk of the 'work'.

Fact is, for most experienced owners they'll know their boat better than any drop-by surveyor will.. it does stick in my craw a bit that the insurance companies insist on these surveys, esp knowing the boat is better than when we bought it, and, perhaps to 'justify' the fee the surveyor has to 'find' something. It can also be frustrating dealing with insurance people that clearly don't understand boats and boating.

Not knocking surveyors in general, of course there are good and bad as in any field, but based on these last two insurance surveys those two were not surveyors I'd seek out for a pre purchase look-see.
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 04-18-2013
sailvayu's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Wilmington, NC, for now
Posts: 137
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 2
sailvayu is on a distinguished road
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Faster, sounds to me like you are knocking surveyors in general. In the above post you complain you have to tell the surveyor what is wrong and then complain the surveyor finds things just to justify his fee. So on one hand he is finding things and on the other he is not?

Honestly I often find problems the owner was not aware of you may not know your boat as well as you think. It can help to have a fresh pair of eyes sometimes and that applies to me as well as I have had to hire a surveyor to get my insurance and yes they found things I did not know about. Why? because I have not looked at that hose or in that hole in awhile.

I am guessing you shopped your last 2 insurance surveys on price alone wanting to get the cheapest report you could and of course you got what you paid for. And the time a surveyor spends on the boat is only part of the time spend doing your full report, somebody has to write the report do the comps and research the findings. Believe it or not most of us work hard it this stuff even if you only see a small part of what is done.

But i know I will not change everyones mind
__________________
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 04-18-2013
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,603
Thanks: 67
Thanked 178 Times in 174 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Sorry, I didn't put all of that very well.. It's true price was a large factor for the insurance survey, and you're right about my 'getting what I paid for'. In the case of the last "dictated" survey there were no findings beyond a burnt out nav light. The report was a photocopy of the handwritten/hand drawn working document I watched him fill out. A far cry from the pre purchase survey we had when we bought.

Anyhow I did not intend any disrespect to the many competent surveyors, and apologize if it came out that way...
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 04-18-2013
sailvayu's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Wilmington, NC, for now
Posts: 137
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 2
sailvayu is on a distinguished road
Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Thanks for that, proves you are a good person and not what I got from the post. I just read a lot of surveyor bashing on these forums. True there are some bad ones but not all. I am glad you had a good experience when you purchased.
__________________
Capt. Wayne Canning, AMS

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
trn/irs sailing angry NewsReader News Feeds 0 10-03-2012 11:00 AM
Angry Hillbillies, Fusee earn wins sailing race NewsReader News Feeds 0 12-01-2011 12:30 AM
Sailor's in the hands of an angry ocean. CalebD Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 6 06-03-2008 10:50 PM
Haiti Migrants Angry by Alleged Ramming - The Casper Star Tribune NewsReader News Feeds 0 05-10-2007 10:15 PM
Angry Prospero makes for rough sailing in "Tempest" (Denver Post) NewsReader News Feeds 0 07-19-2006 11:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:18 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012