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post #51 of 91 Old 04-19-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

But by him using imprecise wording, doesn't that give the insurance company more leeway in denying claims?

Like the OP says, what if he goes to the fuel dock and something out of his control happens, couldn't the insurer say "well you weren't supposed to leave, it says so right here"
and he doesn't get paid even though he has been paying the premiums?
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post #52 of 91 Old 04-19-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

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Originally Posted by northoceanbeach View Post
But by him using imprecise wording, doesn't that give the insurance company more leeway in denying claims?

Like the OP says, what if he goes to the fuel dock and something out of his control happens, couldn't the insurer say "well you weren't supposed to leave, it says so right here"
and he doesn't get paid even though he has been paying the premiums?
It was NOT imprecise wording.

Websters says:
1: to sail about touching at a series of ports

Dictionary.com:
1: to sail about on a pleasure trip.

Nothing within a harbor could be construed to constitute cruising. IF he had meant "do not operate" he would have said that.

And of course, some of the violation are bad sitting at the dock.

(when asked how he reached the starting holds on a difficult rock climbing problem that clearly favored taller climbers - he was perhaps 5'5")

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post #53 of 91 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Heres my problem with the surveyors I've had to deal with working at the boat yard, either they need to bring their seeing eye dog with them or stop taking bribes from the seller or brocker to not list the broblems the boats have. Not just because it makes me look like the bad guy when I need to tell the new owner that its going to need more repairs then was listed meaning more money and time in the yard but it..... ok it is because it makes me look like the bad guy because I will not ignore a problem I see, and Being a grunt I'm not looking for things to make more money, these are things I would want fixed on my boat, not just things like outdated flares that may or may not be needed but and mechanical issues that will come up shortly after the boats in the water.
I think a buyer should walk thru with the surveyor, and that the surveyor should explain the what and whys. When we had a survey done on the boat I am living aboard I was so far up the surveys a$$ I knew what he had for lunch. I even pointed out what I thought were problems. A surveyor needs to educate a buyer/owner when they can,that and in the case of Medsailor ask if there are things like new flares and co2 detectors aboard. It took us 6 months after moving aboard to find some of the stuff the PO's stashed.

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post #54 of 91 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

MarioG, I did not have any similar kind of experience with surveyors. As I said in my earlier post, I just bought a boat and I had a pre-purchase survey performed. He made a special point of doing an inspection I specifically asked for (potential rot in the forward salon bulkhead) and reported the results to me. He also found a problem (kind of a big deal, the rudder post was deeply corroded and I had to have the rudder rebuilt) that the seller would have rathered he not find. Because I made the seller renegotiate the sales price over the rudder work. I got several recommendations for surveyors before I chose one (the boat was 700 miles from my home so I was relying on his professionalism as I did not know any surveyor in that area). I researched them on line before I chose one. I drove 700 miles to be there for the survey.
I got my monies worth. And I got my boat. And I'm using the survey to get my insurance. I saw no sign of corruption in the surveyors work or attitude. Competence and professionalism, that I did see.
A local surveyor is going to get to know the boatyards in his area, it's where he works. He is going to get to know the marina owners and dockmasters. And the local boat brokers. It does not make him corrupt or on-the-take.
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post #55 of 91 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

I'll tell you what my broker told me about insurance surveys. He told me the insurance company may not even look at the survey. It goes in your file, and they write the policy. If/when you file a claim, then the survey gets read very closely, and coverage is denied for any issue whose cause is related to an uncorrected survey problem.

So if you are truly confident that the issues in the survey would not cause an insurance claim, you are free to ignore them. You still have coverage for anything unrelated to survey issues.

So it's entirely up to you. Nobody is stopping you from sailing now. You just won't be covered if those trivial issues cause an insurance claim.

Take my advice with a grain of salt, because free advice is worth what you paid for it, and sometimes less.


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post #56 of 91 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

I was present during my post purchase survey. I think he did a relatively decent job.
Here's the problems I have/had:
I pointed out that I thought the galvanic isolator on my Irwin didn't look properly installed to my surveyor.
He didn't even seriously look at at it (I had to drop the panel cover to show it to him), but he commented in his report that it needed to be properly installed. Mind, he didn't KNOW it wasn't, just said it needed to be.
Now if my maxprop rots off I'll have to prove I had a qualified marine tech come in and install it.

He didn't find the air horn at the helm in the cup holder, or the flare kit (the big Orion orange one) so he dinged me on not having required safety gear.

But what really pissed me off is the 'moisture found' comments. No specific level, just moisture. He told me in a side bar conversation that moisture meters don't get real specific - they just beep more if it's a lot, less if it's a little and it depends on calibration.

He also hit me on two through hulls (engine water and sink drain) having "PVC" fittings. They are original to the boat - i.e. 26 years old. Of course they don't meet ABYC standards, there weren't any then.

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post #57 of 91 Old 04-20-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

I agree with BubbleheadMD, talk to your surveyor. Get him to be more specific not only about the condition but the the specific ABYC standard he is applying. If he uses the standards, he HAS to be able to specify. Repair the other items you can. There is a form space to rebut any survey claims in your insurance paperwork.

If you look for an engine survey, avoid Chris Oliver in MD at all costs.
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post #58 of 91 Old 04-20-2013 Thread Starter
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(WAS) Angry at my surveyor....

Talked with my surveyor today. I thanked him for finding things that I didn't know about and I asked him about the 2 soft wood findings. I told him I couldn't find the ABYC standards for them and I would appreciate being pointed to them so I would know what standard to correct them to.

He avoided the ABYC question a few times and told me that they were both safety issues. I gave up trying to get him to admit that there wasn't really a standard. I asked if he thought the bulkhead was structural on a Formosa with it's thick glass hull and he said he did. I asked if he thought the "start of soft wood" at a non-load bearing spot on the spirit was a safety hazard and he did.

I asked him if he thought they were an imminent safety hazard or a brewing one. He said that I'd be find to sail around the San Juan islands but if I went offshore he thinks they might be a problem. (I'd have to agree with that!)

I then pointed him to the last line in his comments where he says "work needs to be done before any cruising." As soon as I read it to him he said "It's not specific enough is it?" I asked him to make it more specific. If he thinks these issues need correcting before I put the boat back in the water, please say so. If he thinks I can sail around the San Juans for a few months, please define the inshore/offshore issues. We then talked for a few minutes about which issues were real safety ones and which weren't.

He told me he'd correct the survey and get it to me in a couple hours. (pretty good service) I was hoping that he'd outline which issues in particular he wanted done now and which he wanted done later. He didn't do that. What he did do was add 2 words to the sentence about cruising. It now reads "...work needs to be done before cruising off shore."


I'm content enough with the resolution we achieved. The language is more precise where it needs to be and can't easily be read that I need to be pinned to the dock. I'm still miffed that he is saying that 2 items are out of ABYC compliance when they're not but only as a matter of principle. I wouldn't be mad if he said they represent a safety hazard in his opinion, but in principle I take issue with invoking a standard when it doesn't really apply. I'll let that go though as I don't think It'll affect the insurance issues.

So I'll submit the survey and see what happens. Hopefully I'll be able to take the bowsprit off at the end of the season and really "spruce" it up in the shop at home as a fall/winter project.

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post #59 of 91 Old 04-21-2013
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Re: (WAS) Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
Talked with my surveyor today. I thanked him for finding things that I didn't know about and I asked him about the 2 soft wood findings. I told him I couldn't find the ABYC standards for them and I would appreciate being pointed to them so I would know what standard to correct them to.

He avoided the ABYC question a few times and told me that they were both safety issues. I gave up trying to get him to admit that there wasn't really a standard. I asked if he thought the bulkhead was structural on a Formosa with it's thick glass hull and he said he did. I asked if he thought the "start of soft wood" at a non-load bearing spot on the spirit was a safety hazard and he did.

I asked him if he thought they were an imminent safety hazard or a brewing one. He said that I'd be find to sail around the San Juan islands but if I went offshore he thinks they might be a problem. (I'd have to agree with that!)

I then pointed him to the last line in his comments where he says "work needs to be done before any cruising." As soon as I read it to him he said "It's not specific enough is it?" I asked him to make it more specific. If he thinks these issues need correcting before I put the boat back in the water, please say so. If he thinks I can sail around the San Juans for a few months, please define the inshore/offshore issues. We then talked for a few minutes about which issues were real safety ones and which weren't.

He told me he'd correct the survey and get it to me in a couple hours. (pretty good service) I was hoping that he'd outline which issues in particular he wanted done now and which he wanted done later. He didn't do that. What he did do was add 2 words to the sentence about cruising. It now reads "...work needs to be done before cruising off shore."


I'm content enough with the resolution we achieved. The language is more precise where it needs to be and can't easily be read that I need to be pinned to the dock. I'm still miffed that he is saying that 2 items are out of ABYC compliance when they're not but only as a matter of principle. I wouldn't be mad if he said they represent a safety hazard in his opinion, but in principle I take issue with invoking a standard when it doesn't really apply. I'll let that go though as I don't think It'll affect the insurance issues.

So I'll submit the survey and see what happens. Hopefully I'll be able to take the bowsprit off at the end of the season and really "spruce" it up in the shop at home as a fall/winter project.

MedSailor
Sounds like a reasonable meeting with results which are palatable to you for the most part.

Glad you to it worked out and can continue to sail while you work on the issues

Dave


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post #60 of 91 Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
I just got my survey, and I'm not happy with my surveyor. It was an insurance survey, and thus the information contained therein may be used against me by insurance lawyers in the event of a claim.

My boat is not in an unsafe or unseaworthy condition, and it even says so much at the beginning of the survey. What I am mad about, is that he has outlined 10 findings that he says need to be corrected to be in compliance with ABYC standards and I don't believe there really is a standard for 2 of them.

What I'm REALLY mad about is that he seems to have totaled up a bunch of small stuff and made the broad, general, nonspecific (and damning statement) that "The vessel is well found but needs work before any cruising is commenced."

Great. Well found, yes, but needs "work" before "any cruising" is commenced??? I'm afraid the insurance company won't read "well found" but will only read the part about "work before any cruising".

There is a very lively thread started by Brian about what cruising means. It doesn't seem like a well defined term. What about "any". Can I not take this boat back to my slip, or anchor overnight 1km from home? What most peeves me is the word "work". Surveyors, I believe are supposed to use precise language. While a couple sentences ago he says that findings 1-10 need to be done to meet abyc standards (that's precise language) "work" needing to be done is completely nebulous.

Now I know what some of you are thinking. "MedSailor's boat is a death-trap and he's blind to the real state of the hulk. He's lucky to be alive and it might sink in dry-dock tomorrow." I'll let y'all decide if that's true. Here are the 10 findings that he says are out of ABYC standard compliance, with comments in brackets by me:

1: Soft wood at the tab in a forward bulkhead. (Is a soft bulkead really an ABYC standard??? Couldn't find it if it is. They also don't provide much strength to my boat.)
2: Household wire nuts found in 3 locations. (2 are decommissioned wires and one was unknown to me)
3: Start of soft wood at the aft end of the bowsprit (been keeping an eye on this. Again, is there an ABYC standard for this?)
4: Fuel gauge wiring is bare wire and needs terminal. (gauge broken, is on the to-do list)
5: Shifting cable starting to rust through. (Just found this at haulout definitely need to replace)
6: No carbon monoxide detector aboard. (Yes, I have one but he didn't find it)
7: Engine exhaust hose single clamped (don't know how I, or my previous surveyor missed something so obvious)
8: Inverter positive wire terminal exposed (news to me. I never use it. Will fix)
9: Flares expired. (wrong. Got new ones, he only found the expired stash)
10: Fuel fill hose at deck is single clamped. (didn't know it needed double)

So tell me if I'm wrong. Is there really an ABYC standard for a soft bulkhead inside the boat or "start of soft wood" on a bowsprit? I'm not arguing that they need to be on my fix-it list, but is there really an ABYC standard that I'm not in compliance with?

Also, what do you think about the "work needs to be done before any cruising is commenced." I think that statement is too general and might prompt the insurance company to freak out.

What do you think?

MedSailor
Hey MS,

I didn't read through all the comments, but I too would have been frustrated. I think I would go back to him and have him amend it to be more specific and discuss the things that are really critical. Then I would make sure my insurance company signs off on it.

Brian

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