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  #71  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

MedSailor E-books work for free......

Bet with a bit o google fu I could find the ABYC regs too. If you no savvy pay a 12 year old to do it.
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  #72  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

I usually sit back and enjoy reading the wealth of knowledge and free 'training' that is posted here. The issue of surveyors is a hot button for me and I will try to keep this short. Beautiful Catalina 30, great condition. Read everything I could on their issues. Spent 11 hours on boat inspecting everything and taking digital pictures before survey. Surveyor shows up day early to inspect. Sends survey. Boat is in great shape except wrong boat name throughout survey. (surveyor recommended through broker). I sent him 8 pages of minor or significant comments. He, ahem, must have missed them. Meet at boat. Rudder weeping water - survey says, "no problem'. I questioned, he assured. My error for trusting, cost 3 mo. later, $2200. Tab aft of nav table separated, no problem, survey says, 'no problem'. Cost to repair $450. My point is to do your homework and do not pay for crappy survey. If you are not knowledgeable then find a friend or pay someone qualified to be there at survey while YOU ARE THERE. Next boat Compac 27, surveyor recommended by long time dealer. Surveyor comments were nothing major and BOATUS said to fix them within reasonable amount of time. Last comment from surveyor, "I have never done a sailboat so most of the sailboat stuff I just looked to see if it was ok. I specialize in sportfisherman". I take my responsibility again. Get references from 3 or more people about their experience. My next survey is soon and believe me there will be a lot of questions. Something is not up to code, show me the code reference. Have a question you are not sure of. Have third party inspect. Surveyor does crappy job and you have list of items like I did with Catalina, don't pay. I would gladly take my pages of comments with annotated pictures to a courtroom and plead my case. The fancy name on the side of their truck means NOTHING. Ask him questions. Ask more questions. As a new owner you are the only one with money invested and YOU should do your part. Unfortunately I was not fortunate enough to have one at either survey. It is not that difficult to become a "surveyor". It is not easy to be a good surveyor. My apologies to all the great surveyors out there and there are many. I will be looking for you soon.
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  #73  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

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Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
...I have a penchant for catastrophic thinking. Working on that...

MedSailor
That's not a bad thing. It's a tool to use as you see fit, like before you leave the dock.

Regards,
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  #74  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKscooter View Post
MedSailor E-books work for free......

Bet with a bit o google fu I could find the ABYC regs too. If you no savvy pay a 12 year old to do it.
Perhaps...but this thread led me to look for the ABYC codes on line and all I can find are links that request a large registration fee and significant fees to access each of the codes...or more significant fees to access each if not a "member" of ABYC. Only thing I can find that is open is wiring codes for color and current carrying capacity.

Think I will rely on open source and experience and common sense until they fail me.

Why are the codes behind firewalls requiring payment? Never mind...I know...because "they" can make money by charging for them.

Doesn't make sense to me to have "codes" that everyone is expected to meet and then keep them "secret" unless you pay...but this isn't the first time something hasn't made sense to me and probably won't be the last.
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  #75  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by redfishnc View Post
I usually sit back and enjoy reading the wealth of knowledge and free 'training' that is posted here. The issue of surveyors is a hot button for me and I will try to keep this short. Beautiful Catalina 30, great condition. Read everything I could on their issues. Spent 11 hours on boat inspecting everything and taking digital pictures before survey. Surveyor shows up day early to inspect. Sends survey. Boat is in great shape except wrong boat name throughout survey. (surveyor recommended through broker). I sent him 8 pages of minor or significant comments. He, ahem, must have missed them. Meet at boat. Rudder weeping water - survey says, "no problem'. I questioned, he assured. My error for trusting, cost 3 mo. later, $2200. Tab aft of nav table separated, no problem, survey says, 'no problem'. Cost to repair $450. My point is to do your homework and do not pay for crappy survey. If you are not knowledgeable then find a friend or pay someone qualified to be there at survey while YOU ARE THERE. Next boat Compac 27, surveyor recommended by long time dealer. Surveyor comments were nothing major and BOATUS said to fix them within reasonable amount of time. Last comment from surveyor, "I have never done a sailboat so most of the sailboat stuff I just looked to see if it was ok. I specialize in sportfisherman". I take my responsibility again. Get references from 3 or more people about their experience. My next survey is soon and believe me there will be a lot of questions. Something is not up to code, show me the code reference. Have a question you are not sure of. Have third party inspect. Surveyor does crappy job and you have list of items like I did with Catalina, don't pay. I would gladly take my pages of comments with annotated pictures to a courtroom and plead my case. The fancy name on the side of their truck means NOTHING. Ask him questions. Ask more questions. As a new owner you are the only one with money invested and YOU should do your part. Unfortunately I was not fortunate enough to have one at either survey. It is not that difficult to become a "surveyor". It is not easy to be a good surveyor. My apologies to all the great surveyors out there and there are many. I will be looking for you soon.
Well you do not hire surveyors who are recommended by brokers. Brokers sole responsibility is to the seller so they are likely to suggest a surveyor who will not make trouble for the deal going through. Simple as that. It might be best to find who they don't recommend as may well be the ones who find things that make deals fail. And you never have a survey done when not present.
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  #76  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Can't believe I missed this thread. interesting reading
Just a couple of things ...

ABYC Standards are not law but have come to be given significant weight by courts in Canada and USA where there are routinely accepted as "the" standard. It costs a lot of money to produce these standards and there is none of your tax money supporting the organization, someone has to pay for it, hence the $50/standard price.

I would very much like to see a cut'n'paste from the actual survey report showing where the surveyor said soft wood was not ABYC compliant. I have a really hard time believing any competent surveyor would say such a thing. Perhaps you hired an incompetent one ?
You can check to see if he is ABYC Standards Certified at abycinc.org.

Neither I nor any of the other SAMS AMS surveyors in Ontario believe in a difference between Pre-purchase, Condition & Valuation or Insurance surveys all our surveys regardless of what you call them are done the same way (and cost the same). Think of it this way if you are doing a shorter version insurance survey .... what do you leave out ?

In Ontario there are about 250 surveyors and less than 10 that I personally would hire.
Finding a good one involves some effort but they can be found.

In my recommendation section I clearly state whether the comment is "my opinion" or cite the applicable standard concerning the issue.
what is my opinion rather than what is a standard"

If at all possible you should be present for the survey. If you have found one of the good surveyors you will learn something.
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Last edited by boatpoker; 06-13-2014 at 07:09 PM.
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  #77  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post

1: Soft wood at the tab in a forward bulkhead. (Is a soft bulkead really an ABYC standard??? Couldn't find it if it is. They also don't provide much strength to my boat.) bulkheads are very important in the event of a hole in the boat.
2: Household wire nuts found in 3 locations. (2 are decommissioned wires and one was unknown to me) How did he know they were household? my yacht has hundreds of marine grade nuts
3: Start of soft wood at the aft end of the bowsprit (been keeping an eye on this. Again, is there an ABYC standard for this?)
4: Fuel gauge wiring is bare wire and needs terminal. (gauge broken, is on the to-do list) dangerous for two reasons.
5: Shifting cable starting to rust through. (Just found this at haulout definitely need to replace)
6: No carbon monoxide detector aboard.HAve him amend the survey (Yes, I have one but he didn't find it)
7: Engine exhaust hose single clamped (don't know how I, or my previous surveyor missed something so obvious)$5 fix
8: Inverter positive wire terminal exposed (news to me. I never use it. Will fix) $2 fix
9: Flares expired. (wrong. Got new ones, he only found the expired stash)
amend the survey
10: Fuel fill hose at deck is single clamped. (didn't know it needed double)
I think ours is too, good ida to have two, rather then a bilge full of fuel.
My thoughts. I dont think the whole list will cost more then $1500 combined, get to work!

woops, didnt see the date
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Last edited by UnionPacific; 06-13-2014 at 07:17 PM.
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  #78  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by redfishnc View Post
(surveyor recommended through broker)
^^^Never do this.
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  #79  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
^^^Never do this.
I know I said it above but it never stops surprising me how many do this. If you were buying a used car and wanted a pre-purchace inspection would you use the mechanics at the dealer you were buying it from? INDEPENDENT one. Even boatpoker says most he would not use most, and he is a surveyor. He by the way has been very helpful and answers questions both here and in email.
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  #80  
Old 06-13-2014
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Re: Angry at my surveyor....

Quote:
Originally Posted by fryewe View Post
...

Why are the codes behind firewalls requiring payment? Never mind...I know...because "they" can make money by charging for them.

Doesn't make sense to me to have "codes" that everyone is expected to meet and then keep them "secret" unless you pay...but this isn't the first time something hasn't made sense to me and probably won't be the last.
I listen to a LOT of podcasts. One interviewed the then head of the ABYC (no idea if he's still there). At the time he said the same thing you did and said publicly that if you sign up for the free trial period you can download the regs for free. He encouraged people to do it. I did and downloaded a bunch of documents. If you PM me your email address I will zip them up and send them to you. They are dated 2011 so I don't know if anything has changed. I have no idea how often they get updated.
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