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Paying for Document

5K views 47 replies 21 participants last post by  wind_magic 
#1 ·
Got this today;
April 19, 2013
Dear BoatU.S. Member,
Do you own a federally documented vessel? The U.S. Coast Guard is proposing to charge an annual fee of $26.00 for the renewal of certificates of documentation for recreational boats. While the Coast Guard charges to issue new certificates of documentation for boats, currently there is no charge for annual renewal.
This fee will only apply if your boat is federally documented and would be in addition to any state registration fees. For current information on federal vessel documentation, visit the United States Coast Guard Documentation Center.
We encourage you to share your thoughts with the Coast Guard on this proposal before May 3rd, 2013, by going to Regulations.gov
Please forward this email to fellow boaters with documented vessels. If you have any additional questions, please contact BoatU.S. Government Affairs at GovtAffairs@BoatUS.com.
Thank you for being a BoatU.S. member!
Margaret Podlich
President, BoatU.S.
GovtAffairs@BoatUS.com
703-461-2878 x8363
BoatUS.com/Gov

MY comment:
For those of us actually sailing our vessels beyond the contiguous waters of the United States, the document renewal system, as it stands, is cumbersome and extremely inefficient. We spend a portion of the year without current documentation as it can take some time to receive the renewal form, send it in and then more time (perhaps months) for the document to catch up to the boat if it is island hopping in the Caribbean, for instance.
A US documented vessel does not have the advantages in the US that it did a half century ago, and the system today does not in any way aid the national security. However, it is the only internationally recognized registration from the United States, and as such, it is necessary and important to anyone venturing beyond our shores.
It would make a great deal more sense for a document to expire every five (5) years, lessening the bureaucracy and hassle for all parties involved. In that case, perhaps a modest fee would be in order, but I strongly object to any fee on the present, inefficient and outdated system. It would be so simple to do the whole thing online, ending with a renewed document which could be downloaded and printed out.
I understand that the government is in dire need of revenue, but wouldn't it be better to charge the vessel owning citizens for a document produced by a system that is efficient, simple and economical, rather than the present cumbersome and extremely inefficient one.
Your comments?
 
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#2 ·
Fee's aside, it would be nice if they could just send an email letter that you can digitally sign and then send you a digital copy of the documentation . Then you wouldn't have to wait months for either the request or the document to catch up to you.
It's not like there's a raised seal or an original signature on the document. All you'd need is a color printer.

5 year time-frame would be nice. I wonder what their issue might be with that.
 
#4 ·
Isn't it incredible that the government mandates a process that is finds difficult to administer, so it want to charge you to continue it, rather than propose to fix or eliminate it.

Aircraft are required to be re-registered every 3 years and it costs $5. This just started a couple of years back. Previously, registrations were for life. How in the world could a recreational boat be more trouble.

The government just keeps writing more and more rules and is collapsing under its own weight.
 
#5 ·
Nice thought. We have an authorized agent at St Brendan's Isle sign for us while we're underway, but it's still paper, snailmailing back and forth. How 20th century!
 
#6 ·
"It would make a great deal more sense for a document to expire every five (5) years, "
Be careful what you wish for, they'll agree and then say that's $26x5, $130 up front and if you sell the boat before it expires...too bad, no refunds.

Maybe better to ask them how they came up with $26 and to justify that price level.
 
#8 ·
I replied on the government website and indicated that this was another over-reach of government. The CG does a simple, efficient job of processing it now. Once politicians see an opportunity to extract more money, who would believe that fees would not get out of hand in the near future? Government, in every nook and cranny, just keeps expanding. Instead of making the system more efficient, they are only complicating it, requiring more staff, more inefficient paperwork, MORE cost to taxpayers instead of less. As suggested above: 5 year interval, on-line, NO FEE. This seems like a no-brainer but government NEVER makes things simpler if there's an opportunity to extract more money to support their habit.
 
#12 ·
Sorry guys, I take a different view. Everyone here complains about govt. handouts and people stepping up to get free anything from the govt. We've been living on a credit card for years and if paying $26 for a service that many of us want and/or need, will help slow the massive amounts of red ink, so be it.
 
#13 ·
I don't disagree with the principle - I do with the amount. My state license would cost less that $26.

I think some of the ideas here would make sense - e-filing to reduce costs, registration lasting 3 or 5 years, or in force until the boat gets sold, etc.

I am a fan of the USCG, and think it only fair that we pay for a service we receive; having it renewed each year for free was nice, but I was also surprised at receiving it for free as processing the paperwork takes time and costs money for the USCG - so we should all be open to at least covering their costs. But I don't believe in overpaying to prop up an inefficient process, or as a "hidden tax".
 
#14 · (Edited)
The similar documentation here, being the Australian Ships Register cost $1190 as a one off registration for the life of the boat. If amendments need to be made for any changes on ownership, home port etc, then a further fee is collected.
 
#15 ·
Yes, It is a hassle as it is now. 5 years would be fantastic! Still waitiing to have my 2013 document forwarded to me after 5 months. Free has been good...But every year to file with a short window to send the new document....geez. Maybe a State document would be better? Nobody out here seems to care, As long as it "looks" official.
 
#17 ·
$26 might not be all unreasonable. It seems like a lot for someone to "answer a letter" but then again even 30? years ago the cost of a somple business letter or invoice was also figured around $5, based on the paper, the stamp, the envelope, the worker, the chair and desk and utilities around them...the whole picture as opposed to the incremental price of sending out the paper. And with the same magic of numbers, somehow the USCG figures the actual hourly cost of putting up a Hercules C-130 at over $18,000 per hour. Which is within pocket change of the cost they show for some of their largest (~300 feet OAL) cutters. Same price per hour?? The magic of numbers.

Sure, something has to pay for the services but everyone gets some kind of special deal from the government. My tax dollars pay for USDA research on how to grow corn and breed hogs, or not grow peanuts. And I pay for bridges to nowhere. And subsidize airport terminal rents and the Congressional cafeteria for all I know. If boaters "get back" a service that not everyone needs, that's OK, the Fed gets something out of it too. Remember that one purpose of the documentaiton system is to give the fed a convenient list of available vessels that can be commandeered in time of war. Yes, it is not all about recreation or commerce, this is a government function with "national security" functions as well.
And there must be something (diesel fuel excise taxes?) that we're all paying "as boaters" that should be covering some expenses too.
Let the DoD pay me for filling out the paperwork.(VBG)
 
#18 ·
We went to the website and left our comments. The surprising thing I saw was that for all of the attention this issue has received on line, there were only 800 comments. That may seem a lot, but not really for the number of boaters that will be affected. Are we once again going to be viewed as apathetic? Chuck
 
#19 · (Edited)
Got this today;
It would make a great deal more sense for a document to expire every five (5) years, lessening the bureaucracy and hassle for all parties involved.
I've been thinking 5yrs would be nice too for travelers. Or better yet, good for the term of ownership of the vessel.

I agree, a multi year document would be ideal, but we are dealing with a government agency.Chuck
I've been hearing in the military for many years that we're going paperless. The idea, I think, was to have everything go to digital signatures and be able to email things back and forth. Still have yet to see it. We may have digital signatures but still have to print out various forms, cover sheets, and supporting documents to submit anything to different offices and probably use just as much paper as before. Now with the budget cuts, we're getting less supplies and still having to use just as much.

If they are proposing a fee due to the costs involved, they could cut costs just by not having to print up so many documents each year. It could be spaced out every 5, 10, or more years and that alone could save spending. This can also save cruisers from many headaches of trying to get a new document if they are overseas each year.
 
#20 ·
Can anyone cite an example of government ever streamlining a process or agency so that fewer employees were needed and less hassle was created for taxpayers?
 
#21 ·
Most people do not mind paying for service or products of value at an reasonable appropriate price -- open for judgement of course. Review any service or product for such judgement of your own accord.

It is easy to understand folks not favoring a renewal fee for a service that does not increase value, yet, if the fee is void would the service cease? Most likely it would not, so would the free renewal result in a decrease in service? Possible.

To understand the matter of the cost one must follow the money. Do not listen to words of political decision makers to understand their thoughts, rather follow where they decide money is routed.

When one thinks of the changing of business practices it seems everything is moving toward a subscription service; an annual fee could be thought of as a subscription service under an
a legacy name.

Who knows?? Perhaps there may be a fee to de-document a boat in the future??? Anything is possible.
 
#22 ·
smurph-
A small one. The IRS used to make tax forms available by faxback system, so you could call in, get an index, then call back and get any form you needed immediately.
They improved that by offering PDF versions of the forms. And then, the improved that again, substantially, by updating to "fillable PDF" forms that can be filled out on the computer, not just printed as blanks.
All at no charge.

So yes, you might call that small progress but it sets the unthinkable precedent that someone at a government agency can actually make the paperwork simpler, and do so for free.

I'm also reminded of what happens every time there is a fare increase on public transit systems: Ridership goes down, revenue doesn't increase as projected. If the USCG turns documentation into another annual PITA bill, it will also become cheaper for folks to simply drop it, and then just pay the $100 up front again when and if they need it to go abroad.
 
#26 ·
It could be the real motivation is to eliminate a large portion of the documentation. I think you're right that many people will just drop it and go with their state registration. The benefits of documentation are really questionable and probably not worth it to many if it's going to cost money. In NY, the state has been smart enough to make boat (and car) registrations good for multiple years so that's also an example of some small progress.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Our state (Connecticut) requires that ANY vessel that stays in state waters more than X days (I think it is 30?) pay the state registration fee, even if it is Documented. Our 36' boat costs $180. Federal documentation provides a lien history that state registration can not, so Documentation can simplify the sale of a vessel, because the buyer only has to check with the Feds to make sure there are no liens on the boat, instead of any of 50 states that the boat may have traveled through and incurred bills in. I have had no issues with sending in the renewal (by fax, most recently) and getting the Documentation Certificate quickly back from West Virginia, where the Documentation Offices are located. Since the documentation number doesn't change, all you have to do is keep a copy of your application for renewal along with your old certificate until you get the renewed certificate. It really isn't a big deal, even if you are "over there" somewhere.

I would certainly prefer to continue getting renewals at no cost, but can understand that with the Coast Guard being hit with major budget cuts due to the sequester, (thank you GOP) they are looking to recoup costs wherever they can. While we pleasure craft owners may question it, annual renewals may be useful in the case of commercial vessels that might change hands frequently. It enables the Coast Guard to actually keep closer track of who is responsible for the towboat that runs into the Mississippi mile 48 Bridge, or the freighter that runs down a sailboat on a foggy night. Of course, if Documenting your boat isn't worth it to you.... don't!
 
#36 ·
Our state (Connecticut) requires that ANY vessel that stays in state waters more than X days (I think it is 30?) pay the state registration fee, even if it is Documented. Our 36' boat costs $180.

I would certainly prefer to continue getting renewals at no cost, but can understand that with the Coast Guard being hit with major budget cuts due to the sequester, (thank you GOP) they are looking to recoup costs wherever they can.
My 35' boat costs $172.50/year it CT. I don't have to have it documented, but it is. If a $26 annual fee is instituted, I will drop the federal documentation and put the state registration number on the hull.

"Thank you GOP"? paulk needs to get his facts straight on the bipartisan roots of the sequester. Besides, the USCG budget was not whacked like the DoD budget as a result of the sequester, so you can't blame the fee on that.
 
#29 ·
Be nice if there was single website for all "stamps and ribbons". AIS,SSB,ERIRB, boat Doc. etc. Could set up password protected account once ( possibly linked to US bank account) and take care of all this stuff anywhere at anytime. Would simplify life for us and the commercial folk as well. Curently moving some stuff from old boat to new and trying to set up boat with new stuff. Can't fully go through all the paperwork until it is landed in the U.S. Need one piece of paper to get another peice of paper. Major PIA.
 
#30 ·
Folks please use comment secton mentioned in original post. Just did it and it was effortless. May make no difference but you never know. Seems general agreement on this thread their proposal makes little sense for us or security or as a way to generate funds. Pleae let them know.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Folks please use comment secton mentioned in original post. Just did it and it was effortless. May make no difference but you never know.
It MAY help. Remember the outrage over the proposed Broadband spectrum that was close to the same frequency used by GPS. Public comments helped shoot that down!

Here is what I submitted.

I am curious what is driving this FEE. Is it revenue? Or is it to cover the cost of administering the documentation service. If it is operating costs, then I would suggest that the USCG do several things.
A) go to a multi-year renewal. It seems ridiculous to have to mail paperwork back and forth every year. I renew my car for two years and people change cars frequently. I would suggest a 3 year renewal at a minimum, maybe even 5 years.
If this were the case I would say that $26 would be a fair cost to administer the renewal process.

B) This is the 21st century. WHY are we mailing paperwork back and forth? This whole process should be done electronically or at the very least I should get an email w/ the form to print out and mail or email back.

C) IF this is a fundraising fee to help offset the operating costs of the USCG then I am unequivocally opposed to the implementation of the fee.
 
#31 ·
It is really incredible how many repetitive pieces of paper are required for such a simple thing as going sailing: EPIRB regist., Homeland Security sticker, Radio licenses, State Registrations, Dink registrations, Fed. Documentation, not to even mention clearing in and out anywhere...geez, you almost need a freakin' full time clerical staff :D
 
#33 ·
It's a lot easier for me. I don't have EPIRB, no homeland security sticker, my VHF doesn't require licensing, I'm in VA so documented boats don't need state registration and since I never leave the Chesapeake or its tributaries, I never clear in or out of anyplace except occasionally checking in as a guest of a marina.
I would say the vast majority of sailers (probably 99%) are more like me than smurphny who obviously does a lot of traveling.
 
#32 ·
Repetitive paper: You guys have a point. But in order to consolidate it, you probably would need to get every agency to revise their systems, at major expense. And then find one "leader", which couldn't just/always be the documentation number or a state reg number since not all states will require that.

Of course if you can apply for everything online and your browser has autofill turned on...at least there's a lot less typing to do.

I'd expect the EPIRB (which requires additional contact information), ship's station license, DHS, and Documentation could certainly be tied together, although that would require the FCC to yield some authority and funds to the USCG and these kids do not tend to share. But if no one has suggested that idea to them yet, you know?

That could be worth pursuing.

Sending out a piece of mail annually, just ensures someone really "resides" somewhere. Even if they don't. Given how often people move, and sell boats, that's not entirely unreasonable.
 
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