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  #11  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by downeast450 View Post
CD,

What kinds of minimums are you aware of?

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300k at my place in Kemah.
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post

Marathon Marina... same way. I had to make a copy and show full coverage.

I cannot think of a single marina we have stayed at that did not require insurance, and/or a copy of it. We actually carry copies of our policy now to hand out at check-in. Some are quite specific in amounts they require you to carry or you are denied mooring there.

For those thinking about cruising, I suggest you take this into account. Things have changed, from my perspective. The days of live free and let live seem to be overshadowed by the bright lights of the court rooms and legal offices. Don't get me wrong: I always carried insurance and always will. I believe in it and feel it is right for us. But it seems the ability to choose to have it or not are gone.

Brian
I'm always amazed to hear accounts such as this...

I long ago lost even a rough accounting or estimate of the number of stays I've had as a transient in a wide variety of marinas up and down the coast over the years, but it's gotta be a couple of thousand by now... And yet, I have never, EVER, been asked to show proof of insurance, of any kind... Same goes for boatyards, not ONCE... Even bringing my little tub into some pretty ritzy places, from Bahia Mar to Nantucket Boat Basin, it's never happened... I haul my boat at what is now a Hinckley yard here in NJ every couple of years, insurance has never been mentioned...

I'm sure there's something in the fine print on the back of many of the transient dockage agreements I sign at a place like The City Marina in Charleston that requires one to have insurance - but I never read those things, and again, I have NEVER, ever been asked about it...

I spent almost a week at Marathon Marina last winter, the subject never came up... I don't know, Brian - perhaps there's something about you or your boat that spooks them?

(grin, bigtime)

Last edited by JonEisberg; 04-22-2013 at 09:34 PM.
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  #13  
Old 04-22-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
Who is driving this increasing demand for higher liability coverage? Is it the marinas, or is it the insurance companies?

This issue frustrates me b/c the real risk involved in boating activities is exceedingly low. I've looked at the North America accident data, and the rates of recorded injury, damage and death are very low. Despite this, insurance demands seem to be climbing at a very steep rate.

Why?
It's all risk transfer (and a bit of insurance industry self-propogation, I think).

The company that insures the marina mandates that the marina require insurance from the individual boaters so that when Captain Knucklehead's propane stove blows up and torches six other boats it's Captain Knucklehead's insurance that's left paying the tab, not the marina's insurance. That allows the marina to buy isnurance at a lower rate than another that doesn't require insurance from the individual boaters. And, of course, this also requires individual boaters to buy policies, which means more revenue for the insurance industry to help offset other losses they've incurred, like, for example, damages from a hurricane.

The marina I'm in requires $300k in liability and needs to be named as an additional insured. The highest requirements that I encountered when I was looking at marinas in the area was $500k.
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  #14  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Europe went this way in what regard insurance decades ago. The first and sometimes the only thing they asked in a Marina was insurance papers. I was very surprised that in US where law suits are so common about anything that Marina owners would accept it any other way.

Now some countries are starting to ask for a special insurance that covers pollution and some are making mandatory for yachts in some areas to have holding tanks. Some even made illegal the discharge of holding tanks in their territorial waters meaning that they want to control were you discharge them and that means on a Marina, having to pay for the marina and the job.
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  #15  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

I think a lot of the recent changes have been driven by the poor economy. There are more and more poorly maintained vessels occupying marina slips. I have noticed a lot more marina fires in the news over the last few years. I just purchased $1M in liability for my boat. My biggest fear is that I get a call from the marina saying my boat caught fire and took out the half of the boats on the dock. Come to think of it $1M may not be enough...
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  #16  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
I'm always amazed to hear accounts such as this...

I long ago lost even a rough accounting or estimate of the number of stays I've had as a transient in a wide variety of marinas up and down the coast over the years, but it's gotta be a couple of thousand by now... And yet, I have never, EVER, been asked to show proof of insurance, of any kind... Same goes for boatyards, not ONCE... Even bringing my little tub into some pretty ritzy places, from Bahia Mar to Nantucket Boat Basin, it's never happened... I haul my boat at what is now a Hinckley yard here in NJ every couple of years, insurance has never been mentioned...

I'm sure there's something in the fine print on the back of many of the transient dockage agreements I sign at a place like The City Marina in Charleston that requires one to have insurance - but I never read those things, and again, I have NEVER, ever been asked about it...

I spent almost a week at Marathon Marina last winter, the subject never came up... I don't know, Brian - perhaps there's something about you or your boat that spooks them?

(grin, bigtime)
My dear Jon,

I am miffed...



If you stayed here, how did you not fill out this form? You sure we are talking about the same Marathon marina? This is the one in the Florida Keys, btw, not Marathon, NY!! (smile)

I stayed in Venice and a few other places a couple of times, and I do not recall them asking for insurance for an overnighter. I would need to check. However, if you stay in Mantanzas Pass Mooring Field, EVEN FOR ONE NIGHT, they require your insurance company, name, etc. Didn't you stop there when you did that delivery up the west coast? And they are not the only ones:

Snook Bight Marina in Fort Myers Beach, FL, requires insurance on file and current. And as I stated, the Harborage also requires you list them as a "payee" or whatever the term was for it.

I am not saying there are not exceptions or that everyone has taken this route of insurance, but it is certainly a growing trend, and a trend I have seen more and more of - especially over the last 24-36 months. I do not know if Boot Key requires it. I will tell you soon as I think we are going to make our way over there in the next few days. But as Mantanzas requires it, being run by the city, it would not shock me if Boot Key does too. Maybe Gary could answer that for us? And if they do not require it, my guess is that they may soon.

However, I also have not ruled out that they see my boat approaching, kids running on the deck or hanging upside down from the boom, Fatty barking on the bow, my wife screaming at the kids to get down and screaming at me for not picking up my clothes, and the general quiet and serenity of the marina falling into complete disarray. Every boat in the marina is trying to push off, and if their engines don't work, they are using paddles. It is then, when they see the marina emptying, they pull out any form at their disposal to hopefully dissuade me from staying! "NO, GAWD, NOT HIM! SURELY HE DOESN'T HAVE INSURANCE!!!"

Probably doesn't help that I try to pay them in Monopoly money or barter the rent with Legos.

Brian
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  #17  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
Are these for long-term stays Brian, or does it include transient stays as well? Also, do you know how wide-spread this is? I think your examples are all Florida. What about the great beyond?

FYI, I have never encountered this insurance demand up here on the Great Lakes, but I avoid marinas as a rule, so I may have simply missed this trend.
Both, and it is not everywhere yet. I have been to some marinas that do not require it, and as I stated, Mantanzas Mooring Field requires it for even a night. I will say that I asked the clerk what happens (at Mantanzas) if I did not have insurance, which I do. SHe gave me one of those "Don't ask, don't tell" looks. Could you make something up and skate by? Probably. But I am sure that is against the law, or many laws... or I suspect so.

Brian

PS I see 300k as the minimum.
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  #18  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeOReilly View Post
Who is driving this increasing demand for higher liability coverage? Is it the marinas, or is it the insurance companies?

This issue frustrates me b/c the real risk involved in boating activities is exceedingly low. I've looked at the North America accident data, and the rates of recorded injury, damage and death are very low. Despite this, insurance demands seem to be climbing at a very steep rate.

Why?
I dont know. My guess is that they are trying to dissuade the derelicts from coming to their marinas. It is my understanding that when someone quits paying their rent (slip) and/or abandon the boat at your marina, it is a nightmare to get rid of it. My guess.

Brian
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  #19  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post

If you stayed here, how did you not fill out this form? You sure we are talking about the same Marathon marina? This is the one in the Florida Keys, btw, not Marathon, NY!! (smile)
Yup, same marina... I had originally only intended to spend a night or two, but you know how that often goes, and wound up stretching it out to 5 nights, if memory serves... Don't recall precisely what dockage agreement I might have signed, but I definitely know I was never asked to offer any information on insurance... Obviously, your coming in for an entire month, things are likely to be different than for a transient...

The need to have proof of insurance for a freakin' mooring, however, simply boggles the mind... Can't be too long before harbors might be demanding such proof to simply anchor there, no? Or, how about an insurance checkpoint at a spot like the Great Bridge Lock, at the start of the ICW? Just a matter of time, would be my guess...

You've gotta love the irony of being compelled to produce an insurance certificate, by a marina whose owner has recently been charged with a murder-for-hire, in a plot that grew out of a proposed drug deal...

Marathon marina owner nabbed in murder-for-hire plot - Florida - MiamiHerald.com
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  #20  
Old 04-23-2013
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Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Yup, same marina... I had originally only intended to spend a night or two, but you know how that often goes, and wound up stretching it out to 5 nights, if memory serves... Don't recall precisely what dockage agreement I might have signed, but I definitely know I was never asked to offer any information on insurance... Obviously, your coming in for an entire month, things are likely to be different than for a transient...

The need to have proof of insurance for a freakin' mooring, however, simply boggles the mind... Can't be too long before harbors might be demanding such proof to simply anchor there, no? Or, how about an insurance checkpoint at a spot like the Great Bridge Lock, at the start of the ICW? Just a matter of time, would be my guess...

You've gotta love the irony of being compelled to produce an insurance certificate, by a marina whose owner has recently been charged with a murder-for-hire, in a plot that grew out of a proposed drug deal...

Marathon marina owner nabbed in murder-for-hire plot - Florida - MiamiHerald.com
He was only a small part of the marina ownership - 2% I think. Word is that he lost everything too. I have been here a few times and probably met him, but most of my involvement was with Judy, the dock master, who is awesome.

I agree with you on the mooring field and stuff. In fact, I know this is very unpopular on Sailnet, but I do not think insurance should be required at all. I personally would carry it, and always have, no matter what. However, I do not begrudge those that don't. If they hit me, my insurance will cover me and go after them, so I am covered. If they hit someone else without insurance, then it is up to both parties to work out an agreement as both parties took the risk. But that is my opinion, and like I said, it is unpopular on Sailnet. I just don't like even more regulation on boating (though I actually think it should have some type of licensing, but that is a whole other discussion).

Brian
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