Insurance and cruising... - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree5Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 04-24-2013
night0wl's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 1,409
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 9
night0wl is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

Brian - Legacy was freed....it also is a perfect demonstration of why insurance is a scam. a boat like that is un-insurable or have ridiculous out policies for losses. Most people with yachts like that are forced to self insure. Insurance premiums, especially in proverbial high loss areas like florida, are not trivial. In my neck of the woods, premiums alone (not deductibles, co-pays, co-insurance, etc) are in the neighborhood of 2-3% of agreed value. Not to mention, they pay out in depreciated value.

If one is smart and has resources, they should think about self insurance! Put aside the money paid in premiums and have a catastrophe fund that can help bring the boat back. But then again, I would also carry a umbrella liability policy for $1-$2MM. A common "gotcha" of an umbrella policy is that they require you to have $300k of liability coverage on the underlying asset before they begin coverage.
__________________
S/V Jendai
Beneteau 343

Last edited by night0wl; 04-24-2013 at 11:35 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 04-24-2013
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,904
Thanks: 3
Thanked 110 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by night0wl View Post
Brian - Legacy was freed....it also is a perfect demonstration of why insurance is a scam. a boat like that is un-insurable or have ridiculous out policies for losses. Most people with yachts like that are forced to self insure. Insurance premiums, especially in proverbial high loss areas like florida, are not trivial. In my neck of the woods, premiums alone (not deductibles, co-pays, co-insurance, etc) are in the neighborhood of 2-3% of agreed value. Not to mention, they pay out in depreciated value.

If one is smart and has resources, they should think about self insurance! Put aside the money paid in premiums and have a catastrophe fund that can help bring the boat back. But then again, I would also carry a umbrella liability policy for $1-$2MM. A common "gotcha" of an umbrella policy is that they require you to have $300k of liability coverage on the underlying asset before they begin coverage.
I disagree. That is a perfect point of why to have insurance. Crap happens. It may or may not be your fault. But don't risk your entire investment over a small outgo. Insurance companies make their money by spreading their risks everywhere. They are kept in check through competition. As individuals, we can't do that. If you had owned legacy, for example, what would you be looking at out of pocket? Can you really cover the costs of hitting a 2 million dollar hatteras? A diesel spill on the reef? Torn up sea grass in a environmentally sensitive area? The loss of your boat in a hurricane?

Here is another very recent case in point: Very good friends of ours lost their engines in Nassau. The Bahamian government refused to let Sea Tow or any US company in to tow them back to the US, where they had to go for a replace. They insisted that BASRA do it (as did BASRA). As such, their quote for tow was $125/mile until they were out of Bahamian waters... FROM NASSAU! I think that ended up being close to $15,000... but I don't remember now. How many years of premiums until you have paid $15,000?

I am not saying insurance does not have some scam aspect to it. I also think that everyone should have the right to have it or not as they see fit. I was on record as saying that earlier. However, you need to know the risks and be financially prepared for them.

By the way, I have your insurance too. I am currently in Marathon. I have paid for all of the US, from Texas, all of gulf coast, all of keys, Bahamas-Turks, Atlantic all the way up to Canada. If you don't like your insurance rate, you should take a gander at mine!!! $225k hull value.

But the whole discussion in some ways is pointless. I have seen a real predominance in insurance requirements. As I said, even Mantanzas Pass requires it to even tie up to their ball for a day??? I don't agree with that, but what other choices do I have? Harborage requires being listed on the insurance. It is not up for discussion. Marathon Marina, Snook Bight Marina, etc, etc. It seems the number of marinas that do not require insurance are dropping, while the number that do are growing. What choices do you have as boaters? You can either anchor everywhere (not really reasonable), search for the dwindling marinas that don't require insurance, buy a house on the water to park your boat behind, or give up boating. I really do see a day when pretty much everyone 'has' to carry it.

Brian
__________________
Sailnet Moderator



1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 04-24-2013
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,902
Thanks: 57
Thanked 65 Times in 63 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
The worst for this is Australia where many marinas want $10 million in liability, most others want $5 million. Scarborough Marina in Brisbane accepted our Jackline policy with $500,000. They get a lot of foreign visitors. We stopped for one night at the marina in Airdrie Beach so we could touch base with an electronics tech. After thinking about it for an hour they said we could contact our insurance company to see about increasing our limit. I was going to point out the 11 hour time difference and the fact it was one night (at a high price), but thought I would leave well enough alone. Remarkably, in the morning when I took the key back to get my deposit they asked if I had talked to my insurer and I assured them that they were working on it. We used a marina in Darwin and the said they wanted $5 million but I could arrange a local supplement. When we got there they only wanted a copy of our insurance and did not mention the liability amount.
It seems like Australia tries their best to discourage sailboats, from their clearing in policies to insurance. I think when I finally set off to do the big loop, I will avoid it entirely. Australia has apparently gone from remote penal colony to the land of regulation and official nonsense.
aeventyr60 likes this.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 04-24-2013
MikeOReilly's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Posts: 1,213
Thanks: 121
Thanked 56 Times in 50 Posts
Rep Power: 5
MikeOReilly is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
But the whole discussion in some ways is pointless. I have seen a real predominance in insurance requirements. As I said, even Mantanzas Pass requires it to even tie up to their ball for a day??? I don't agree with that, but what other choices do I have? Harborage requires being listed on the insurance. It is not up for discussion. Marathon Marina, Snook Bight Marina, etc, etc. It seems the number of marinas that do not require insurance are dropping, while the number that do are growing. What choices do you have as boaters?
THIS is the real issue. When a so-called private for-pofit product (insurance) becomes mandated (or quasi-mandated in this case), the normal checks and balances of market economics breaks down. Add to this the opaque nature of how premiums are arrived at, and you get a dysfunctional market that has very little incentive to limit cost increases.

Remember, insurance is simply a tool for mitigating risk. It does this by pooling risk and sharing the cost amongst the pool (a lovely socialist solution BTW). But that's not the only way to mitigate risk, and in the case of sailors and cruisers, it may not be the best way.

Risk is proportional to likelihood of an Event happening TIMES the potential Impact of that event:
R E x I.

So, investing in good systems and maintenance, in training and gained experience ... stuff collectively know as good seamanship ... these will almost always be better, and more cost-effective, ways to reduce your real boating risk.

But the other thing I keep pointing out (whenever this discussion arises), is that the number of events are exceedingly small in boating. I don't have the analysis in front of me right now, but when I looked at USCG data for all types of incidents, from death to property damage, the numbers showed that boating is incredibly safe. Far safer than many things we routinely do like driving, eating processed food or walking in a city.

I get it ... demanding that everyone carry insurance is the simplest way to protect everyone's a$$. But in a case where resources are limited, and you have to chose between insurance or, good maintenance for example, then it becomes a false benefit.

I'm certainly not saying insurance is never a good idea. If you are involved in high-latitude sailing, or perhaps competitive racing, then insurance is probably a good idea. But for the vast majority of us, it is money poorly spent.
__________________
Why go fast, when you can go slow.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 04-24-2013
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 2,373
Thanks: 19
Thanked 33 Times in 32 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Brent Swain is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

Boats on reefs in the South Pacific simply become parts of the reef. The US government has been sinking ships as artificial reefs, greatly enhancing the local fish populations there. We have been doing that here in BC as well. Not all the world is as paranoid and hipocritical as the US , playing the game of " Aint I politically correct" while dumping huge amounts of pollutants per year into the finite atmosphere. Someone who drives a car daily, while preaching about pollution to someone with an environmental foot print less that 1/10th of their own, is like the pot calling the kettle black. Actuallty it is more like the pot calling the shiny stainless spoon black.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #36  
Old 04-24-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,841
Thanks: 34
Thanked 33 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 3
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

If it gets bad enough perhaps we will see a collection of sailors ( like us on SN) forming a consortium and insuring ourselves. Believes Llyods started under similar demands and concerns. If done as a non profit consortium the costs could be qite reasonble.
MikeOReilly likes this.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 04-24-2013
SimonV's Avatar
Wish I never found SN!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 1,997
Thanks: 3
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SimonV will become famous soon enough
Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
It seems like Australia tries their best to discourage sailboats, from their clearing in policies to insurance. I think when I finally set off to do the big loop, I will avoid it entirely. Australia has apparently gone from remote penal colony to the land of regulation and official nonsense.
Increasing your public liability when in Australia is dollars not Hundreds. Where the 10Million came from started in Queensland due to the huge cost to the public for the clean up of beaches and marine parks from Maritime wrecks. They don't differentiate from the 12' tinny and the 49 foot trawler but if you are bigger than 50 foot then you have to take out a second insurance.
As far as discouraging cruisers from visiting our shores, Yes they are tough on what you can bring into our country, but no tougher than most other isolated country's, who are trying their best to protect our diverse fauna and flora. I see a lot of these complaints coming from US and EU folks. I can tell you that the US is the strictest and most controlling authoritative group I have seen. The US require a non resident (alien) Cruiser to inform them when ever the vessel is moved, even from one marina in San Francisco to another in San Francisco, Australia only needs you to report in when visiting a Customs port, so Leaving Sydney you only need to reports when passing Coff, Brisbane , Bundaburg, Mackay ect. that leaves a lot of cruising grounds in between where you do as you wish. I recommend all Cruisers come and see our country, and make sure you leave your boat at a marina, hire a RV and tour the inland as well. I have yet to meet a visitor complain about anything but the cost.
aeventyr60 likes this.
__________________
Simon
Ericson 39B.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I love my boat
S/V GOODONYA
Brisbane
present location Heading to the Whitesundays

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

DELIVERY SKIPPER
Drinking Rum before 10am makes you a Pirate NOT an alcohlic
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 04-24-2013
smurphny's Avatar
Over Hill Sailing Club
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Adirondacks NY
Posts: 2,902
Thanks: 57
Thanked 65 Times in 63 Posts
Rep Power: 6
smurphny is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

In the age of international flights, millions of pieces of luggage, and international shipping of thousands of containers, in the free flow of goods, it seems like the clearance systems for boats like fumigation and food restrictions are quite absurd. They are more revenue producers than systems to actually protect anyone from anything. Most of these systems were put in place to inhibit the spread of Yellow Fever and Smallpox, not a big issue nowadays. I'm sure the US must be a real PITA to clear in, especially since 911. We citizens even need a Homeland Security sticker to go 70 miles to the Bahamas and get back in...silly. Treating all boats as if we are criminals is really an intrusive blanket solution to what amounts to a NON problem. The theory is: Let's inconvenience everyone so maybe once in a while we may stumble upon something bad. It's government out of control.
__________________
Alberg 35: With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 04-25-2013
aeventyr60's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Andaman Sea
Posts: 1,653
Thanks: 7
Thanked 35 Times in 33 Posts
Rep Power: 4
aeventyr60 is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
In the age of international flights, millions of pieces of luggage, and international shipping of thousands of containers, in the free flow of goods, it seems like the clearance systems for boats like fumigation and food restrictions are quite absurd. They are more revenue producers than systems to actually protect anyone from anything. Most of these systems were put in place to inhibit the spread of Yellow Fever and Smallpox, not a big issue nowadays. I'm sure the US must be a real PITA to clear in, especially since 911. We citizens even need a Homeland Security sticker to go 70 miles to the Bahamas and get back in...silly. Treating all boats as if we are criminals is really an intrusive blanket solution to what amounts to a NON problem. The theory is: Let's inconvenience everyone so maybe once in a while we may stumble upon something bad. It's government out of control.

Murphy, that's why we cruise far, far, far from your shore.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



"Your dreams minus your doubts equals your net worth"

Life is a short journey, filled with emptiness and pain. Get all the sailing and booty you can.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 04-25-2013
Group9's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,648
Thanks: 20
Thanked 60 Times in 59 Posts
Rep Power: 5
Group9 is on a distinguished road
Re: Insurance and cruising...

I paid the extra for a policy last time I went cruising down south. It was $2000 I could have used for radar or something else, but it did feel good knowing that I wouldn't lose everything if something went wrong.

Nothing did, and I am still on the fence about whether I will carry it next time, though.
__________________
On the northern Gulf of Mexico.


"Best thing to do is get her out on the ocean. If anything's gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there." Captain Ron Rico
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Caribbean Cruising Insurance Snboard976 General Discussion (sailing related) 3 11-08-2009 07:37 AM
Cruising Insurance bidet Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 6 03-20-2004 01:17 AM
Cruising Medical Insurance sci_fi Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 1 01-11-2001 10:18 AM
Health Insurance While Cruising William Mahaffy Seamanship Articles 0 08-04-1999 09:00 PM
Health Insurance While Cruising William Mahaffy Cruising Articles 0 08-04-1999 09:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:15 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.