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  #21  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
So what is your fix sir? Do you offer a solution?
You're not going to like my answer. The solution is to find a way to pay your insurance. If you don't have the money to pay your premium, you are certainly not going to have the money to pay the damage you do to others' boats and docks if your boat catches fire. So in my opinion you are a bad neighbor. If you cause damage to others, you are likely to disappear rather than face up to your financial obligations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
...Or do I just have to sit at the dock?
Actually, sitting at the dock is probably the most irresponsible thing that you can do, because it is the place where you are most likely to damage others' property. Without insurance you should cast off from the dock and not come back. I'm surprised the marina allows you to stay there without insurance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
...Either I have insurance for a boat that I cannot afford to cruise
Or I don't have insurance for a boat that I can afford to cruise...
It could be argued that you cannot afford to have your current boat. It's nobody's fault but your own - you should have included the cost of insurance in your calculations of total cost of ownership. If you can't afford the insurance, you should have chosen a more affordable boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
...Far from a dead beat sir, I just cannot afford it.
Isn't that what all deadbeats say?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Or someone stops charging out the yang for 30+ yr old boats worth less than 10 k seeking only liability.
The cost of your boat has little to do with the likelihood of damaging other boats. As a boat ages and its value depreciates to nothing, it is more likely to have electrical problems, fuel leaks, and other issues that make it a greater risk to catch fire and/or cause environmental damage. That's why the premiums on old boats are often so high. Your argument about lack of financial resources reinforces this, because it suggests that your maintenance may be inadequate.

Don't forget: Insurance companies want your business. They compete with each other to get it. They will offer you the lowest rate that their actuaries say will allow them to make a profit. If you're getting high rates from everyone, it is because there is a risk factor which tells them that they are unlikely to make a profit on you. There's nothing sinister about that - it's just business.

Look, I know what I'm saying isn't what you want to hear, and I suspect you'll come up with all sorts of reasons why I am mean-spirited, closed-minded, or just plain wrong. So just stay away from my boat (and the boats of other responsible boaters here) and we'll call it even.
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  #22  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
You're not going to like my answer. The solution is to find a way to pay your insurance. If you don't have the money to pay your premium, you are certainly not going to have the money to pay the damage you do to others' boats and docks if your boat catches fire. So in my opinion you are a bad neighbor. If you cause damage to others, you are likely to disappear rather than face up to your financial obligations.

Actually, sitting at the dock is probably the most irresponsible thing that you can do, because it is the place where you are most likely to damage others' property. Without insurance you should cast off from the dock and not come back. I'm surprised the marina allows you to stay there without insurance.

It could be argued that you cannot afford to have your current boat. It's nobody's fault but your own - you should have included the cost of insurance in your calculations of total cost of ownership. If you can't afford the insurance, you should have chosen a more affordable boat.

Isn't that what all deadbeats say?

The cost of your boat has little to do with the likelihood of damaging other boats. As a boat ages and its value depreciates to nothing, it is more likely to have electrical problems, fuel leaks, and other issues that make it a greater risk to catch fire and/or cause environmental damage. That's why the premiums on old boats are often so high. Your argument about lack of financial resources reinforces this, because it suggests that your maintenance may be inadequate.

Don't forget: Insurance companies want your business. They compete with each other to get it. They will offer you the lowest rate that their actuaries say will allow them to make a profit. If you're getting high rates from everyone, it is because there is a risk factor which tells them that they are unlikely to make a profit on you. There's nothing sinister about that - it's just business.

Look, I know what I'm saying isn't what you want to hear, and I suspect you'll come up with all sorts of reasons why I am mean-spirited, closed-minded, or just plain wrong. So just stay away from my boat (and the boats of other responsible boaters here) and we'll call it even.
Yea, i'll take issue here.

Ex marine 4 yr BS in BIO graduating now with his own boat, car, and current job. That's what all deadbeats do I guess.
Inadequate maintenance is why I could afford to buy a live aboard boat in the first place. The 200+ man hours worth of labor and 10k investment makes sure she is 'adequately maintained.'
Your insurance policy, like vehicle, has clauses for uninsured boaters- so you would be reimbursed. But thanks for tellng me I would do the criminal thing and just run away- That was a nice touch.
If I save that 1800 annual, im pretty sure I could afford to cover a ding less I crash into an Oyster but with my 17+ years sailing I have yet to damage anthers boat yet, besides my own.

I did the smart thing. Everyone else is throwing rent at a landlord. I bought a house and rebuilt it. I own my own home at 25. By the way, my first post-grad job should provide a nice boost in income but when it does I still wont be a like you.
Kick rocks and stay away from MY boat why dont cha?

Last edited by Harborless; 05-01-2013 at 02:57 PM.
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  #23  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Yea, i'll take issue here.

Ex marine 4 yr BS in BIO graduating now with his own boat, car, and current job. That's what all deadbeats do I guess.
Inadequate maintenance is why I could afford to buy a live aboard boat in the first place. The 200+ man hours worth of labor and 10k investment makes sure she is 'adequately maintained.'
Your insurance policy, like vehicle, has clauses for uninsured boaters- so you would be reimbursed. But thanks for tellng me I would do the criminal thing and just run away- That was a nice touch.
If I save that 1800 annual, im pretty sure I could afford to cover a ding less I crash into an Oyster but with my 17+ years sailing I have yet to damage anthers boat yet, besides my own.

I did the smart thing. Everyone else is throwing rent at a landlord. I bought a house and rebuilt it. I own my own home at 25. By the way, my first post-grad job should provide a nice boost in income but when it does I still wont be a like you.
Kick rocks and stay away from MY boat why dont cha?

You may not like what he is saying but he's right. And this is from a guy that hates insurance companies. Old boats are risks. Regardless of the time and effort put into them, as things age they break down. In an era where the slighghtest oil spill in a marina can result in a six figure liability...the insurance cos are pricing risk very conservatively. You're a risk and a danger to others.

On the flipside, if you're confident in your seamanship...go uninsured. Or, be like a business and transfer title of the boat into an LLC (should only cost $200 a year) and then if you spill or hit someone...well, the LLC is the owner. Dont know how personal liability works when you're at the helm though and hit someone else.
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  #24  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
I own a 1979 AMF Paceship PY26 and I live in Jacksonville, FL. I just received a quote from my Geico lady who shopped around my policy to a bunch of marine affiliates and received a quote of 168.93 for the entire year.
However, I got this quote on a Friday this past. There was a stipulation regarding the policy that stated I needed an 'out-of-water survey' to be completed before I could get it. Well, I only spent $2900 on the boat and never got a survey done but since I had practically rebuilt the thing and documented it on photobucket and with marina invoices the Geico lady thought I had a good shot at them allowing me to complete a 'self-seurvey form.' Anyway, since it was Friday early afternoon when I called I did not get a reply back from the marine insurance people regarding the survey hindered so I am waiting right now for a call back today to find out the results-- So just expect the policy to be relatively cheap for a bare minimum liability and pollution and uninsured boaters whatnot but also expect any insurance agent to want a survey to be done on your boat or that HAD BEEN DONE IN THE PAST 30 DAYS***
So, I would think you would be looking at under $200.00 plus the cost of survey unless you can get them to let you do a self-survey instead. I will let you know my results.
How did this work out for you? Seems $170.00 for liability is much more reasonable than my policy.
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katsailor View Post
How did this work out for you? Seems $170.00 for liability is much more reasonable than my policy.
They wanted the survey done out of water by a professional surveyor, no deal.
BoatUS no survey but 1800 annual
and that's the point im trying to make. people are trying to make it impossible for people to have freedom without wealth.
My boat is 27 ft and over 30 yrs old, its just ridiculous im treated like a freighter or something.
Is it so wrong to want to sail exotic and remote places to find peace and happiness? FFS im sorry im not waiting around twenty years to have the cash you type-minded people want me to have.
I am sorry the law have become what they are, the world is become an over regulated mad house bur with an exploding global population and increasing competition between nations for resources what is one to expect? Yet I will not willingly comply by abiding the norm and sacrificing MY LIFE to toil for enough wealth to afford every safety net or insurance most of yu refuse to leave the dock without.
Also I totally get where your coming frm. If I DID stay around have a career save up and get a 50 100 or more thousand dollar boat I would be very apprehensive about someone like me. But im not waiting, I apologize for going against the grain.
Im leaving while I still can. Ill try my very best not to hit anyone on the way out.
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  #26  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

The problem people seem to miss is liabilityis what really puts the insurance company on the hook


I been there and done that with Seafever as when i bought it anybody that put liabilityon it would have been out of there freaking mind

I was very friendly with the PO and had he not kept the boat in his name and insurance until after it was hauled and blocked in my driveway it would have been imposable to have bought the boat


He was and older fellow the boat had gone to hell and none of the yards in the Whitestone area even wanted to haul the boat so i had to to do the temporary outboard and move it to glen cove to be placed on a truck

At which point i had to take the personal risk on the good bit of money i spent on refit until the boat would pass a legit hauled out survey

After the survey it was not much problem until sandy this year as it destroyed my sailing area and there gun-shy right now
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  #27  
Old 05-01-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
...its just ridiculous im treated like a freighter or something.
Because you can cause damage on par with a freighter. Imagine...storm, your boat is caught on video having an old designed cleat break (metal fatigue over 30 years had weakened it) careening across the marina damaging docks, other boats, finally putting a hole in a oil tank....causing a spil...then sinks blocking/hindering the cleanup effort. Its not hard to imagine a million dollar liability tere. So, the insurance co needs to price you as a risk.

Quote:
Is it so wrong to want to sail exotic and remote places to find peace and happiness? FFS im sorry im not waiting around twenty years to have the cash you type-minded people want me to have.
Nothing wrong with it...its just that you're being reckless/negligent when you go uninsured/underinsured. Just like when you dont carry health insurance and go to the ER for treatment...we all pay. Everyone takes risks in life, and if you go uninsured, just know what you're getting into beforehand. The question is are you wiling to live with the consequences...bankruptcy, loss of good name, lawsuits, ruined life/credit for 10 years if you were to cause a bad enough accident and be underinsured?

Many people are "judgement proof" and drive around anyway. They're broke make no money have no marketable skills. If they crash into someone and cause damage...(as long as isn't a criminal case)..they're impossible to sue because they *have* nothing. "Freedom is having nothing left to lose" right???

Quote:
I am sorry the law have become what they are, the world is become an over regulated mad house bur with an exploding global population and increasing competition between nations for resources what is one to expect? Yet I will not willingly comply by abiding the norm and sacrificing MY LIFE to toil for enough wealth to afford every safety net or insurance most of yu refuse to leave the dock without.
Also I totally get where your coming frm. If I DID stay around have a career save up and get a 50 100 or more thousand dollar boat I would be very apprehensive about someone like me. But im not waiting, I apologize for going against the grain.
Im leaving while I still can. Ill try my very best not to hit anyone on the way out.
Just dont anchor near me please...I'm one of those saps that waited to buy a newer boat and pay the $2000 a year on insurance on it because I live in Florida.
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Last edited by night0wl; 05-01-2013 at 11:41 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

I just paid my premium and couldn't help but think of how much was related to the fact that others don't pay for insurance. Thanks for that. I suppose I should help myself to something of yours, next time I see you.

I will need to ask, but I've never heard of uninsured boater coverage. Ironic that someone without insurance is explaining how insurance works.

If one does not insure damage to their own hull and another boater damages it, I do not believe the injured party can make some uninsured boater claim. The offending boater is liable. If they don't have insurance, you'll have to sue for a judgement, which you would get with minimal effort. One can rightfully decide if they do not want to be insured against damaging their own boat, but its both reckless and irresponsible to ignore your liability to others.
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  #29  
Old 05-02-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by night0wl View Post

Quote:
Is it so wrong to want to sail exotic and remote places to find peace and happiness? FFS im sorry im not waiting around twenty years to have the cash you type-minded people want me to have.
Nothing wrong with it...its just that you're being reckless/negligent when you go uninsured/underinsured. Just like when you dont carry health insurance and go to the ER for treatment...we all pay. Everyone takes risks in life, and if you go uninsured, just know what you're getting into beforehand. The question is are you wiling to live with the consequences...bankruptcy, loss of good name, lawsuits, ruined life/credit for 10 years if you were to cause a bad enough accident and be underinsured?
I think one thing that's being overlooked in this discussion, but is relevant given Harborless' plans...

An affordable plan from Boat/US, Progressive, whoever, is not likely to cover the losses of a singlehanded sailor in a place like Luperon, DR, for example...

I theoretically would have been covered if I had lost or had damage to my boat last fall in Hurricane Sandy... But, for much of the sailing I do, I simply have to accept that I'm basically on my own...

When I'm off cruising on my own, a sound vessel, good ground tackle, an abundance of caution, and paper charts often comprise the bulk of my insurance... (grin)



Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-02-2013 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 05-02-2013
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Re: NE Insurance Rates - Reasonable?

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
One can rightfully decide if they do not want to be insured against damaging their own boat, but its both reckless and irresponsible to ignore your liability to others.
Well said.

And for anyone with assets, not carrying liability insurance is stupid.
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