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Winged keel

5K views 23 replies 14 participants last post by  Jiminri 
#1 ·
What are the pro's/con's of a winged keel?
 
#3 ·
Run aground in mud/sand and the winged keel becomes a highly effective anchor. And you can't heel the boat to work free. At least that's what I've been told. Never had one, so I'd like to know how true that is.
 
#4 ·
As most wing keels are between a foot and 18 inches shorter than their “normal” keel counterparts, how much of a real advantage do they really give? Do you guys normally sail in depths of less than two feet under your keels? When I am in skinny water, I’m always afraid of running across and getting stuck on a hump (did this twice). I’m also afraid of hitting that sunken shopping cart or lawn chair too. (I normally sail in depths greater than 100’ – I don’t know how you guys on the east coast can stand that skinny water.)
 
#7 ·
Chuck, Do you know that California is C34 heaven? And San Francisco is home to the mighty Fleet 1? A fellow C34 skipper is always welcome. For the rest of you guys: Two forms of ID and a letter of recommendation from your YC Commodore please...;)

But seriously, you guys sail in that shallow water where a foot is the margin of safety? How do you account for tides? My Chesapeake experience is somewhat limited, I did do an AYC Beercan years ago as a trimmer on a C27 out of Eastport.
 
#8 ·
The tidal range on the Chessy is about a foot so we don't have to worry a whole lot about tide.

And yes there are plenty of creek entrances where even with a wing keel you'll only have 2-3' feet below you in the center at high tide and if you get 1/2 a boat length out of the channel you'll be aground. The way we deal with it just like anywhere else; plan to cross shoal areas at high tide or not to cross them.

For the OP, the only advantage of a winged keel is the ability to manage short water. If your primary sailing area or intended use doesn't constrain you, I'd go fin. If you plan to cruise the Chesapeake Bay, ICW and/or Florida waters you're going to be more limited with a deeper fin than shoal draft or wing keel. A 6' keel on the Chesapeake will limit you somewhat, a 7' keel starts dictating what marina's will be available to you and rules out a ton of popular anchorages. I think ICW sailors tell you 5' is around the most you'd want.

In regards to wing keels being more problematic to get unstuck if you do run aground I can just say I've never experienced that and I've never personally met anyone with a story like that. I've found the bottom with my wing keel more times than I can count but have always been able to free myself. However, I was motoring into a creek or anchorage and feeling my way along so I didn't just ram myself aground.
 
#9 ·
Like everything about a boat, a wing keel is a trade-off. You draw less water, but the conventional wisdom is that you don't point as high, and may heel a bit more in the same wind. I have a Catalina 320 with a wing keel, and I can attest that she doesn't point like the racers do. But I've never sailed the fin keel version of the C320, so I don't know if I've lost that much from the wing keel. One thing that is pretty unambiguous is that most wing keels are heavier than the equivalent fin keel, to keep the righting moment similar with a shorter keel. So sailing the wing keel is like bringing a couple extra friends aboard for every sail.

The real issue is how thin is the water where you sail, and what kind of sailing do you plan to do. I do my racing on a friend's boat that draws 7'6", and will out-point mine by a healthy margin. On the other hand, some days we can barely get my friend's boat out of the marina. I knew I wasn't likely to race my boat, and would be doing a lot of my sailing single-handed, with no crew to swing out on the boom to heel the boat and reduce draft. So the wing keel wasn't much of a sacrifice. And the all the water you sail in doesn't have to be shallow before you get a benefit -- just the shallowest spot you might have to cross.

On the other hand, if you plan to race, or if you sail mostly in deep water, and don't venture in the shallows, the shallower draft of the wing keel isn't much of a benefit, and the loss of pointing ability may bother you more. In that case, you'd probably be happier with a fin keel.

Basically, you choose which way you want to compromise, and then hope it works out. Either way, if what you're complaining about your is your sailboat, you're already doing pretty well.

Mark
S/V Reality
 
#10 ·
When I had my C-30 with a 5' keel, I hit bottom more than a few times. With my C-34, 4' wing, I haven't hit bottom the first time.
Here on the Chesapeake and all it's tributaries, we have more quiet little anchorages than you can count and the nice thing, we don't have to carry hundreds of feet of anchor rode. I've never put out more than 100'
 
#12 ·
I've got wing-keel. Grounded twice, now calls it mantaray-keel. If i buy a new boat, i'll go for fin keel. In hindsight, difference between wing and fin keels are only 12-18". Not going to make much difference in the shallow water i sail in.
IMHO deeper fin keel points better than shorter wing-keel.
 
#13 ·
This is one of those topics that's more important in sailing forums than in the real world. :rolleyes:

It really depends on how you use your boat. If you're day sailing or cruising you won't feel a big "seat of the pants" performance difference between the two keels. On most boats you'd only see that difference if you're constantly tweaking your sail trim; something most cruisers and day sailors don't do because you're talking, snacking and enjoying the day.

You will be able to sail in skinnier water. Here on Barnegat Bay 18" can be a very big deal. We still bump bottom every so often, but the few times we've grounded I've been able to get her off without drama.

Now if you're serious about racing the fin is the way to go because that slight difference in performance is the difference between winning and losing a race.

Like I said it all comes down to how you want to use her.
 
#15 ·
Kriss, I had a C25 with a swing keel, and would gladly have moved to a wing. The wing was something like 3" deeper than the swing keel with the keel up. Where I sailed, those 3" would have bought me about 20-30 minutes of additional sailing time (shallow bay, could only sail high tide +-3 hours), but the peace of mind of not worrying that a 1500lb slab of steel was going to come down and break the keel trunk would have been very nice. I actually ruled out swing keels this time because of it.

Perhaps a light-weight centerboard might work (much less risk of damage), but the swing keel made me a bit nervous.
 
#16 ·
Perhaps a light-weight centerboard might work (much less risk of damage), but the swing keel made me a bit nervous.
I agree with you there. My swing keel is not that heavy (Mirage 5.5m) but the upwind performance is not great. Another trade-off. However, the low or neutral weight CB designs (Bristol, Tartan) I have seen really work well in shallow waters. I sail mostly on Pamlico Sound which has a lot of tricky, shallow spots that keep moving around. I run aground quite often but all I have to do is lift the keel a little and I'm back in the game.
 
#18 ·
There seem to be a lot of folks saying this is only important in racing, but isn't PHRF meant to take those differences into account? So in theory, if I am racing, it should make no difference. But as I pass someone while cruising, I don't usually give myself a time penalty and declare the other folks to be faster. I just yell some insults and revel in my prowess. Definitely worth the extra draft for that.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Out here in the West Coast we have diurnal tides that swing five feet (more if you are Canada or Washington) which compounds our anxiety while transiting shallow water. We do seek shallow water for current relief but it is a delicate balancing act. As I helmsman I need to be very aware of where we are in the tide cycle. In San Pablo Bay, I tack out pretty much immediately when I see single digits on the sounder (Sounder measures from the surface). In the Olympic Circle off Berkeley, I go in, eyes metaphorically closed only because I am usually chasing boats with deeper drafts.

I am curious on how you guys do it on the East Coast. Is the really skinny water at entrances and you guys work your way in under motor? What is your average depth while sailing? We like to find “shallow” water to anchor in (usually 15-20’). My record anchoring depth was 96’! But that was during a race when the wind shut down and we didn’t want to lose ground on the account of current. (pretty trippy, flying a spinnaker and anchored at the same time off of Alcatraz.)
 
#24 ·
I am curious on how you guys do it on the East Coast. Is the really skinny water at entrances and you guys work your way in under motor? What is your average depth while sailing? We like to find "shallow" water to anchor in (usually 15-20'). My record anchoring depth was 96'!
If I'm anchoring in 15' of water, I'm probably asking myself why I picked a spot that is so darned exposed. I normally anchor in 7' to maybe 9' (I draw 4'). When sailing, I start paying attention when the depth gauge shows 10' or less. I really like to be in water deeper than 25', but that's because there are far fewer crab pots and pound nets that deep. A lot of the Chesapeake is just a big puddle. Beautiful, but not deep.
 
#21 ·
My average depth in Great Egg Bay (I was in the back bay) in NJ was 1-2' at low tide, 4-7' at high tide. Barnegat Bay is 5-7' in most places with about a 6-12" tidal swing, though it obviously gets shallower around the edges. Off the NJ coast, even a few miles out, you're only in 40-50' of water. I was astounded when I first went sailing with a friend off SoCal a few years ago and saw depth markings on the GPS of 400+ feet only a relatively short distance off the coast.
 
#22 ·
I think wing keels are much more difficult to get off than a fin!! You have a lot more options (and easy ones) with a fin than a wing. If you heel your boat over on your wing, you actually may be increasing your draft. However, Sometimes I do that anyways because the keel seems to have some kind of a suction on the bottom. THat is my theory anyways!!

George - yep, the water is really skinny here. We often come into channels where we don't have a foot under us. The ICW is supposed to be maintained to 7, but I have still bumped in it. The water under my keel right now in Boot Key is about 2 feet. I have a 6 foot draft. This is a pain. I cannot imagine having more!!

Brian
 
#23 ·
I have a small boat with a swing keel that I sail on Pamlico Sound where the deepest water is 25 feet. Tides are irrelevant here but wind direction can change the water depth sometimes by as much as 2 feet. The inlets are treacherous, with strong currents and always changing sandbars. Sometimes I crew on bigger boats and I swear to myself never get a big boat with draft over 5 feet. You have to be really alert when entering most protected anchorages as the channels are really narrow and water is black like strong tea, so 2 feet of water has the same color as 10 feet. But there are the rewards too, and I know plenty of secluded anchoring spots where you can be on anchor for 3 days and never run into another human being. There is so much wildlife around you it is pure magic, especially at night. You read a good book at the kerosene lamp light, listening to all these sounds... and then you turn in and listen even closer... the wind moves the boat ever so slightly and the moonlight dances in the cabin... that is hard to top... :)
 
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