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How to Proceed...

5K views 30 replies 12 participants last post by  billyruffn 
#1 ·
Leaving for the Bahamas May 13th out of JAX. Had two questions.
1: the leg from JAX to New Smyrna Beach looks to be a possible over nighter. On the east coast of FL there are not a lot of inlets between Jax and NSB. My question is "how would you proceed from Jax to NSB single hand? Would you leave at night so that by the next day you are approaching? Would you break it up?

I want to travel through the Bahamas to Puerto Rico. I have heard this called the thorny path. How long do you think it would take to do this route? I do not want to do route 65 headed toward Bermuda. With hurricane season ramping up around August I want to make sure I reach Rico with enough time to find a good marina or anchorage.
I plan on living in Rico until hablo espanol muy bien. Then I will sail to st. Croix je voudrai parle francois tres bien. After that I do not know what I will do.

Last question: If you were in Rico and a depression was developing, would you stay in rico on the south side of the island? Or would you run towards the coast of S.A.? Or would you try to run down to the virgins?

This is all incredibly exciting. I cannot wait for next week to come!
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Harborless -

1) I would overnight in St. Augustine (assuming favorable weather for the entrance). Contact the commercial towing service in St. Augustine (SeaTow I think) before departure for up to date local information on the inlet.

2) Buy a copy of Bruce Van Sant's book "The Gentleman's Guide to Passages South" aka "The Thornless Path". Read it cover to cover, it will be a great help to you.

3) Good luck on finding French speaking people on St. Croix. It is part of the United States Virgin Islands. Which reminds me, don't forget to buy all the necessary charts for your trip.

4) In event of an approaching tropical system, I would stay on the south coast of Puerto Rico, which has a number of places to hide. See #2 above.

Have a good trip.
 
#4 ·
Do be very aware that you are pushing your luck to be leaving this late. Hurricane season starts in 25 days.

Get Van Sant's book and really study it esp. the parts on waiting for weather windows to make certain passages.

If you have a powerful diesel and your boat is 45 ft + with a reliable autopilot you might make it motor sailing most of the way. In fact the weather is showing reasonably light conditions for the next few days so today would be a good time to leave.

However if the SE trades start honking with the Caribbean 2 step running [ a short sharp boat breaking sea condition ] then going south and east will be somewhere between hard and impossible. Esp if you have a 30 ft boat with a tiddly engine.

There is a reason it is called the THORNY PATH.
 
#6 ·
Your plan seems pretty risky to me. The Thorny Path is quite slow since you have to wait for the appropriate weather systems before heading to the next anchorage. These systems are much more common in the winter when the whole meteorological world shifts south. With what the jet stream is doing now, I would imagine the Trades are very well established and likely honking. Trust me, going hundreds of miles to windward in strong Trades is something to be avoided.

If a hurricane/tropical storm is coming I don't think you could get to South America ahead of it. Once you knew it was a threat to PR you would only have a couple of days (say 250 miles, don't know fast your boat is) and SA is a long way away, especially if the storm turned left a bit.

If I were you I would be looking for a November departure for the Caribbean. Find a really good hurricane hole or marina in Florida and spend the time sailing your boat and fixing the problems that emerge. Will a really clear forecast, ie no sign of a tropical disturbance even off the coast of Africa, you might head into the Bahamas but not too far. Be ready to head back to your bolt hole at the first sign of trouble even if it is 1000 miles away - think in terms of days both for the storm and for your retreat. You don't want to lose your boat, not to mention your life, in the first few months. Read van Sant and Cornell and trust their advice.

Wasn't St Croix Danish at one point? Wonder if anyone still speaks Danish? BTW, if you want to work on your Spanish I believe that some folks in Florida speak that language.
 
#9 ·
Wasn't St Croix Danish at one point? Wonder if anyone still speaks Danish? BTW, if you want to work on your Spanish I believe that some folks in Florida speak that language.
Yes the USVI was purchased from Denmark. There are frequent Danish tourists that come to the USVI and many make visits to the various cemeteries to see their relatives headstones. They speak Danish. I've not heard many others.

OFF TOPIC
I've enjoyed following your blog Killarny. Hope you are healing well and can get back out there again soon.:)
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thank you all for your replies and advice. I am worried about the thought of banging into the trade winds for that long but I do not intend on doing it all at once. I would spend the last two weeks of may and full month of June getting down the Bahamas and hopefully on the way to Turks so that hopefully I could make Rico by the 2nd week of july. Is 8the weeks sufficent time? I have 2 brand new North Sail made sails jib and main to help me shave close up so i should be able to make good ground if I wait for proper weather like one poster said correct? I suppose if its really that impossible i could stay in the abacos. Until november as they have some good holes and you im very familiar with the area.
id really like to attempt the rico trip i want to start working again before i go to low on funds. Im selling my car so returning to jax is not an option. Also, i would plan on going south through the bahamas and then turks and caicos to get to rico. That would be the plan. Just wondering if i can make it realistic in 8my weeks. I know its pushing it..
 
#8 ·
Harborless - I don't think 8 weeks is enough time to do the trip you're talking about safely or comfortably.

Have you thought about spending the next 8 weeks cruising the Florida coast and the Keys? There are lots of places in S. Fla where you can learn Spanish and French and not expose yourself to the hazards of the trip you're copntemplating during the start of hurricane season.

Not trying to talk you out of an adventure, just saying there might be other avenues for cruising fun without bashing down to Puerto Rico.

In any case, good luck and godspeed. Enjoy the trip!
 
#10 ·
Why would you stop in New Smyrna? That inlet looks nasty on the chart, particularly if the weather is uncooperative. If you wait for nice Easterlies, which should not be much of a wait, you can go to Cape Canaveral or Ft. Pierce which are much more welcoming inlets. If you time your departures to get to your destination by 9AM, you'll get there by noon. If for some reason you are rocketing along and you think you'll get to your destination in the dark, reef, reef ,reef. Slow her down to 2 knots if necessary but never, never, never make a night landfall.
 
#11 ·
I would stop in NSB because I am picking up my uncle for the gulf crossing. Also, my grandparents (sailors) live in NSB so I wanted to stop and visit for 2 or three days before I started the leg to West Palm Beach.

I had not really considered the Keys... Could you explain why they would be a better option during hurricane season? Are the keys less prone or have better hurricane holes than the abacos or turks and caicos or Puerto Rico?
I mean, i guess I could cruise around the Northern regions (Abaco's) and have plenty of time to run back to the keys if that were the case. However my whole intention of reaching Rico faster is to find work and start living there for six months or a year. If I float around I will be burning up resources. I am sure I could find work in the Keys at a bar or restaurant if I had to but again, why re they the better choice during hurricane season?
I will get the book you have recommended.
Also, why do you consider NSB so bad? It is a bit narrow but other than that seems fine.
 
#12 ·
A bit sideways from the subject, but -
I have been told that it can be difficult for newcomers to find work in Puerto Rico, especially if they don't speak spanish. I have no personal experience on this, but I was told this by a lady who lived there for some time.
Something to think about. Anybody else have an opinion on this?
 
#15 ·
I am in a bit of a quandry it seems. I, to be honest, am not comfortable with my present skills going to Rico via route 65 or 66 as I would be alone at sea for almost or more than a week during hurricane season-- that seems pretty risky.
The thorny path sounds like a fun adventure, but again I have hurricanes to think about. I am not lieing when I say I am still leaning on this approach--simply bc of finances. I worry about boating around losing funds too long and becoming destitute before I have the oppurtunity to make Rico, find anchorage, and I assume have a week or two for finding a job.
Option three has me hanging out in the Abacos and running to the Keys or perhaps Man-o-War Cay harbor in case something develops-- however daily I would be losing money.
Four has me staying in the Keys so I can hold a job- But I have 0 charts for the keys, no prior knowledge, have never visited or done any research and I am a week from departure.

Eight weeks really is not enough time to make the sail? I envision myself crawling 1-2 knots all the way down the islands by how you are describing i the passage. You are right in that I DO NOT want to lose my house in the first few months.
The cyclone chart shows very little activity in my proposed area until August, though with the crazy weather we have had this year I think the law of averages may not apply this season...
Could someone please explain why the Keys are such a better hold up?
Do you think $2000 is enough to make the move/trip? Im budgeting $25 daily.
 
#17 ·
Unfortunately, the current unemployment rate in Puerto Rico is over 14%. It seemed devastating in the states, when it got over 9%. Finding a job may be tough. I have heard, however, that there are jobs picking coffee in the hills in 90 deg temps that people just don't want to do. Only rumor.
 
#18 ·
The idea of the Thorny Path is not to fight against against the constant Trades and currents at a very slow, very uncomfortable rate. Rather it is to sit in a harbor until a frontal system comes through and use the short-lived favorable winds generated by the system to dash to the next harbor where you wait for the next favorable winds. At this time of year the frontal systems are way north so you might wait for a very long time. I think van Sant's approach is for the post-hurricane season, after November 1. Read the book to see how it works.

As for seasonality of hurricanes, we purposely crossed the Indian Ocean to get to South Africa before the cyclone (hurricane) frequency increased. We had to abandon Mauritius a lot sooner than we thought we would because a tropical storm was developing. TS frequency in the month was 3 in 10 years. It developed into a Category 3 storm (130 knots). There had never been a cyclone recorded in that month. Averages are just that, they don't tell you what is happening in any particular year and it was a waning La Niña year which should have made conditions even better.
 
#19 ·
Thanks so much for your advice and help.
I am not concerned about finding a job- I have loads of experience in the service industry with terrific references. I see little problem finding a serving or bar tending job at a resort,bar, or restaurant.
If after a month no job was forthcoming, the Virgin islands are only a short leap away.

I still have no received any knowledge as to why the keys are a better area to be during cane season then the bahamas caicos or rico?
 
#31 · (Edited)
Several points to consider:

1. The Keys aren't a better to be -- they're all bad places to be in a tropical storm / hurricane.
2. If you don't speak Spanish you aren't likely to get a job working tables / bar in PR. In addition, there also aren't many places where you can live on your boat and work in a resort in PR, Fajardo being a possible exception.
3. You are probably most likely to get a job of in the service industry in the USVI. And you can anchor your boat for an extended period and live aboard in Charlotte Amalie on St. Thomas. From Charlotte Amalie you could work anywhere on the island and commute by public transportation. Same is probably true to a lesser extent in Christiansted, St. Croix, but the anchorage there would be a very bad place to in a storm. Charlotte Amalie is a much better place to be, if you have to be somewhere afloat during the hurricane season.
4. FWIW, you might consider parking your boat in FL somewhere, flying to the VI for a few days and scout out the job situation before you go to all the trouble of moving the boat south.
5. If you take your boat into the tropics during the hurricane season you must be comfortable with the possibility that you will lose the boat. If you can accept that and live with it... OK, it's your boat and your life.
6. $2000 is not enough to go crusing for an extended period of time. Try working in FL somewhere until the autumn. Save your money and go south when the season's right. Jobs are easier to find in the islands when the tourists are there and summer isn't the high season.

Best of luck to you.

PS -- IMHO, being able to actually live your dreams requires that you confront reality head-on, be reasonable in how you approach problems that present themselves, work hard, be patient and have faith that eventually things will work out.
 
#20 · (Edited)
OK I see from your profile that you have an Amf Paceship which is a 26 ft sloop and those came with a single cylinder 8 hp diesel.

You will find it almost impossible to make headway motoring upwind into the typical short sharp seas known as the Caribbean two step. Butting into these for days will break you and your boat.

The tried and tested strategy is to WAIT for the winds to turn and the seas to diminish. This happens mostly in winter. You might get some windows in summer but the usual tendency for the winds is SE which is bang on the nose for you. You need to be in Elizabeth harbor Great Exuma by January at the latest and start weather watching and taking every opportunity to make easting.

You are too late for this year and you need more money unless you have a reserve that you can tap if something breaks. [ Bank of mum and dad ?]

Clearance fees alone
Bahamas $150
Turks and Caicos $400 There is a lower charge if you make a single stop to refuel I believe. This would be unlikely to apply to you.
Dominican Republic $68 minimum plus 'despacho' fees at ?$15? a pop.

Why not spend the summer in the Bahamas with a close eye on the weather so you can run to a good hurricane hole.

BTW all bets are off if you get another Andrew, ask the locals about what happened in Hatchet cove which was thought to be one of the best hidey holes.

Re finding a job in the islands esp. in the hospitality sector. This is very unlikely as the tourism business is waaaay down. Everybody is hurting down here.
 
#21 ·
Thank you for considering my options, and vessel. It is not what I want to hear, but, that is ok. I think, with all of the advice I have received, that I will sail the Abacos for awhile. Around July I will head back to the states and find a hurricane hole to hold-up in until the winds become more favorable for a trip south, or my experience warrants an atlantic route. Hopefully I can find a job in the keys or better yet the abacos.. unofficial of course.
Thank you all for the advice.
 
#23 ·
Hey Harborless - my apologies on being slow to respond to you, but on the idea of sticking to S. Fla or the Keys for this trip, I was thinking you would be more likely to be able to find work there, the options for sailing when you're not working are still awesome, evading hurricanes from there would be easier (and safer) because you don't have to cross the gulf stream or open ocean and, if a hurricane sneaks up on you and you can't sail away, you can always anchor the boat somehwere and take the bus to mainland. Plus, it's going to be a lot easier on your wallet. Charts are cheap, (heck, I have paper charts of the Keys I can loan you) and you're still in the US so no IC fees, food, fuel, and fun are cheaper, and if something breaks you can get parts and service fairly conveniently (join SeaTow or BoatUS if you aren't already a member).

If I had 8 weeks to spend on the boat in June and July, and didn't have to work, I would gunkhole around the Keys, shoot over to the Bahamas if a good weather window opened up, go to Ft.Jefferson, check out the Little Snake River and the southwest Florida coast, and just plain soak up some sun and enjoy time on the boat.

Pressing into the wind and current to get to a destination 1,300 miles away just doesn't sound like much fun to me, but I'm kind of a slacker that way.

Either way you go, I'm envious of your opportunity to go Cruising! I'll buy you a beer if you stop at Merritt Island as you go by.
 
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#24 ·
NSB looks like a very tight inlet if the weather is not cooperating. i don't think it will be a fun experience if it is blowing 20-25 knots out of the East when you get there. There appears to be no margin for error.

What are you using for self steering? That is the question that we singlehanders always ask.
 
#25 ·
NSB looks like a very tight inlet if the weather is not cooperating. i don't think it will be a fun experience if it is blowing 20-25 knots out of the East when you get there. There appears to be no margin for error.

What are you using for self steering? That is the question that we singlehanders always ask.
Primarily myself and the tiller along with an egg timer. I also have practiced sailing using bungee cords and sail trim to hold a course. Lastly i have a tiller lock which holds the tiller on course long enough for me to tinker with the jib or do something else.
this is why i have planned the trip in no more than 12a hour runs with me possibly leaving out of st augastine at night to make new smyrna before dark the next day. My average cruising speed should be around 4.5 knots with dinghy in tow.

If merrits on the wy why not! Yea the keys sound like a fun time.. plus its something new. I just hope there is ample spear fishing.
 
#26 ·
I don't know as I've ever personally run a boat for 12 straight hours alone, let alone without an auto-helm of some sort. I've done several hours on a tiller and 10 or more on a wheel many times, but always had someone to relieve me, even if just for a few minutes, so I could use the head or quickly eat a sandwich.

Every year, my wife and I will do a few dawn to dusk passages. I do not have to remain at the helm the entire time, but I'm always on alert, as she feels capable to sail unless something goes wrong. I am always totally and completely wiped out and we have an auto-pilot.

12 hours alone on a tiller with no auto-helm, would require super-human sailing skills and endurance in open water, IMO. Find something, even it used, to allow you a break.

Take realistic steps on your adventure and it will come together.
 
#28 · (Edited)
I vry much appreciate the thought out responses here, they are invaluable. I will take heed of the warnng regarding leaving St. Augastine at night and push it to first light.
The problem with the ICW is I have never looked at anything regarding it or sailing it. I would have to plan a whole new passage and get all the charts and navigation aids. The problem here is I AM sort of bare bonesing it in that when I leave, that is it. I have $2500 and a sailboat in really good shape with tons of spares. I have two degrees ( AA and BS) and the world. I have to make sure I make landfall somewhere to make money before I spend too much f it on alternate charts, tiller pilots, ect.
I still need an outboard for my dinghy and I am not sure how the instllation of a tiller pilot would work (would require haul-out) at this point I do not want to put any more big money into the boa until I find my next source of income because right now its all going to be red.
I did just youtube tiller pilots... I will check more today on the installation but the price is not bad actually... If I can install without a haulout or lots of expensive mounts I will do it before I leave, thanks for the recommendation. If I do not get it in before I go I am 25 and a bit of an insomniac anyway.. Of course I would have MRE's ready before I left s I could quickly (2-3 minutes) leave the iller with what I have and prepare them quickly. Usually when I do solo sail I set the tiller lock in conjunction with the sail trim and just sit back there beside it and read. Works well unless the wind pick up too much.
The ICW sounds peaceful... I actually want to do offshore thouh, nervous tho I will be. I have good charts and have my GPS figured out (so far). I can always VHF locally on approach for latest advice on conditions and procedures.
Of course I use a Hawaiian sling, otherwise where would the sport be?
Lastly thanks again to al the responders here. I know behind all of your "asking for disaster," comments are really just worried parents and sailors trying to look out for another. Its nice to have that sort of thing especially online such as this.
 
#29 ·
Your welcome. :)

However, there is more to it than being 'worried parents'. We've often seen people's dreams dashed by skipping some basics or pushing aside the advice from those have gone before. (Jon, btw has done the trip you're about to do many many times). The real loss is to see someone fail, when they could have succeeded.

I have a real wonder at the moment about a poster that was asking tons of questions on going to the BVI. Many of us, who have been there multiple times, tried to redirect their thinking a bit. They accepted some but pushed back on most. While posting the day before the trip, they've been back for a month or more and no word. I know they've signed on to SN. I worry it didn't go as well as they dreamed.
 
#30 ·
For safety you really need a tillerpilot. This will cut down the fatigue dramatically.

Hand steering for long passages is very tiring. Tired people make bad decisions.

Fitting is simple and the boat does not need to come out.

When you head down the Thorny path you will need a spare for safety, two spares would not be overkill.
 
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