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  #41  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

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Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
Well if I had that kind of money to spend I would buy one of the "compromise" boats and then buy a Farr 30 to race with the boys!
Yes you can do that, but would need to be two times richer because a Farr 30 (and all its sails) is a very expensive boat. and a good cruising boat with the same quality of the J122 would not be less expensive.

But even if you are that richer, if instead racing around the cans you prefer offshore ocean racing, then the J122 is a better racing boat and you would not need to buy a second boat: That boat is a winner at high level and can cruise with comfort, giving you sailing pleasure while cruising.

Last year they had won the ROLEX MIDDLE SEA RACE (1st and 3th).

Just some more information about that, and victories in main offshore races and championships:


"Racing against the latest 40' competition, J/122 continues its ability to win in all conditions around the world- Fastnet Race (UK), Island Double (UK), RORC Championship (UK/ FRA), OSTAR Race, Bermuda Race (US), Rolex Big Boat Series (US),

Sydney IRC Offshore Championship (AUS), Annapolis-Newport (US), Chicago-Mac (US), Chicago-Mac Double (US), Port Huron-Mac (US), Spi Ouest (FRA), Rolex Middle Sea Race (Malta), Ft. Lauderdale-Key West (US), Rolex US IRC Championship (US), Stamford-Vineyard Race (US), Block Island Race (US), Rolex International Regatta (USVI), St. Maarten Heineken Regatta, Antigua Race Week, just to name a few. No other 40 footer has equaled its unique ability to win in light air, flat water to heavy air and enormous seas on any point of sail. Proof is in J/122's winning record with a wide variety of sailors, from fully-crewed to double-handed."


http://jboats.com/j122

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-10-2013 at 06:49 AM.
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  #42  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

Paulo,

For the most part, some of us like shock and faster in the northern salish sea, Dodenja and myself, in southern salish sea and literally dock mates as close or closer than anyone else on sailnet.....live in an area that from a racing standpoint, only have buoy racing available. So one either gets a boat that can do that well, ie a stripped racer like a farr 30 or other 1d boat which seems to be few and far between, or one seems to go with a cruiser of some sort, and makes do racing the many races available.

There are a number of J's inthe 40' range local that do race, as there is also a number of other J's in the mid 30-40' range. The 105's seem to be the most loyal 1d group. The 30's, 35's and 109's do not seem to get out as a group that often. We might have enough 111's sold to form a group, but not sure on that one as of yet. Otherwise, the only other 1d in a boat that can cruise that are active are older boats under 30 for the most part, T-birds, San jaun 21 and 24, Moore 24, santacruz 27, along with daysailors such as lasers.

There are probably only 5-6 races I would call ocean style locally, swiftsure, Vic-maui, Van isle and one that goes from Astoria Oregon to Victoria Canada a week or so before vic-maui. Southern straights might be considered a longer off shore, but not really offshore. Not sure I would call VanIsle a true off shore either, as most of the legs around vancouver island are 15-125 for the longest, and you stop ea night as you sail around the island over 2 weeks. So a different sailing venue than you have in europe.

Reallity is, shocks idea of a F30 and another boat works. Altho if it were truly me, due to lack of wind around here, I would do an F30 and a tug style with a semi-planinghull that would get me places a bit quicker and out of the weather at times. Or possibly a planing style boat, with a larger cockpit so one can fish out of it for salmon, halibit etc and get to places quickly, and have a place to stay warm, sleep etc.

Marty
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  #43  
Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
David,

If you are thinking of Paul, he had a J37c, which was sold about a year or so ago in the SE US. Spouse wanted a bigger kitchen per say, so he went with some kind of slow slug of a boat. Almost total opposite of the J37c. It is a bit longer. Sheryl might have the blog somewhere. My LT died, so I am using another computer, other wise I had that blog saved on that on.

Marty
Well.. that explains why I couldn't find his J36 blog!
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  #44  
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

For a dozen of so years we owned (in partnership with friends) a 40 foot racer/cruiser - which we rarely raced - and a 24 foot dayracer. It really was the best of both worlds. My friend and I raced the boat with our sons as they grew through their teens, it was a quick, nimble boat ideal for short RTB races. In summer and non race weekends we cruised the bigger boat, at times we attended regattas with both 'mothership' and racer. It was great fun, out teenage kids were happy to spend time with the old guys.. as the Mastercard guys said... 'priceless'...

A M242 is a whole different ball game than an ambitious Farr 30 program, however, so I see Paulo's point about the costs that could be associated with that. However the 2-boat concept can work... BTDT.
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  #45  
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Paulo,

For the most part, some of us like shock and faster in the northern salish sea, Dodenja and myself, in southern salish sea and literally dock mates as close or closer than anyone else on sailnet.....live in an area that from a racing standpoint, only have buoy racing available. So one either gets a boat that can do that well, ie a stripped racer like a farr 30 or other 1d boat which seems to be few and far between, or one seems to go with a cruiser of some sort, and makes do racing the many races available.

...

There are probably only 5-6 races I would call ocean style locally, swiftsure, Vic-maui, Van isle and one that goes from Astoria Oregon to Victoria Canada a week or so before vic-maui. Southern straights might be considered a longer off shore, but not really offshore. Not sure I would call VanIsle a true off shore either, as most of the legs around vancouver island are 15-125 for the longest, and you stop ea night as you sail around the island over 2 weeks. So a different sailing venue than you have in europe.

Reallity is, shocks idea of a F30 and another boat works. Altho if it were truly me, due to lack of wind around here, I would do an F30 and a tug style with a semi-planinghull that would get me places a bit quicker and out of the weather at times. Or possibly a planing style boat, with a larger cockpit so one can fish out of it for salmon, halibit etc and get to places quickly, and have a place to stay warm, sleep etc.

Marty
Marty, an offshore racer likes to do offshore races and I know of some that do thousands of miles to go racing. wherever you live if you want to do a lot of offshore races you are going to sail a lot to attend the races or will have a crew or someone to get the boat there. Normally offshore races are also major events and it is possible to find some sponsorship and that diminish costs.

When I was talking about being rational buying a J122 for cruising and racing I was talking in generic terms. Shock has said that the price of the boat was ridiculous. I was explaining that it is not, not implying that it suits him, unless he has the budget for the boat.

When a boat has a ridiculous price the boat don't sell and is taken out of production, like the Catalina 400, for instance. The J122 is on production for many years and they continue to sell boats so, not only the price is not ridiculous as the boat has been a commercial success for many years.

As I have said that boat is not meant for the ones that compete at club racing, many times with old boats. The boat is pointed to the ones that want to compete in major races at top level and want also a performance cruiser for cruising.

There are few boats that can manage that has successively as the J 122 and at a sensible price. For the price of a top racing boat you get a top racing boat and a very good performance cruiser. A performance cruiser with that quality would have cost a similar price anyway so you get for the price of one boat a boat that can handle with top marks cruising and racing. You are saving the price of one boat, the racer or the cruiser.

The J122 is expensive? Of course good boats are expensive but the boat is not more expensive than other similar boats with the same quality and not as good racing.

I was only pissed with the price of a J122 to be considered ridiculous. That's an average price for that type of boat (quality interior included).

Of course any used boat is less expensive than a new one an in what regards racing, if there is a new model from the same brand, less fast and less competitive. What make the ideal boat to anyone has to do with the budget one has. Some has the budget to buy the best boat for what they want to do others have to compromise and chose the best boat inside the budget and that means sometimes an older and slower boat.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-10-2013 at 10:02 AM.
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  #46  
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

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When a boat has a ridiculous price the boat don't sell and is taken out of production, like the Catalina 400,
Oh... SNAP!!
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  #47  
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Oh... SNAP!!
Well, I just remember that one, there are a lot more there are in the catalog that don't sell and only are maintained as an option because the production is not an industrial one.

What I find odd regarding the Catalina 400 is that it was taken out of production without being replaced. Being a 40ft one of the sizes that sell more I just can't understand that as a commercial strategy. Why have they done that and not replaced in time the 400 by a more modern and appealing boat? Are they in trouble? or it is just bad management?

Regards

Paulo
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  #48  
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What I find odd regarding the Catalina 400 is that it was taken out of production without being replaced. Being a 40ft one of the sizes that sell more I just can't understand that as a commercial strategy. Why have they done that and not replaced in time the 400 by a more modern and appealing boat? Are they in trouble? or it is just bad management?

Regards

Paulo
I find that very strage as well.

Both the C400 and C470 has been taken out of production and replaced by the C385 and the C445.

I would have thought that 40' and 47' are sweet spots that a manufacturer definetely would like to be present in?

Now, I suspect I know why the C400 and C470 were taken out of production ( in addition to being "old" desgins), the reason could be that despite the relatively high price, Catalina did not make as much money on them as they did/do on other models such as their replacements. The C400 and C470 has much more wood and cabinets etc in interior and some replacement models such as the C387, C385 and to a lesser extent the C445 has been somewhat value engineered in that regard to reduce cost.

Now, the J122 is a sweet boat. Maybe next time...
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  #49  
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

There are 3 J122s on Yachtworld right now.
2 of them are in the $250k range and one is over $350k. Either 2 of them are ridiculously under priced, or one is ridiculously OVER priced.

Whatever. For that kind of money I wouldn't buy one. I have enjoyed sailing on various Js over the years, but I don't like them enough to pay their premium price. I just don't think they are THAT nice! (One exception was a J 160; it was amazing!If money was no object that would be high on my list.

If I was independently wealthy and able to travel around the world racing in ocean races I wouldn't be doing it in a racer/cruiser, I would do it on a full on race boat. But I'm not. I have a job, and a family, and I have no interest in ocean racing all over the world, even if it were feasible for me.

When it comes to club racing around here, Jboats are by no means dominant. In fact they quite often get beat up on by much cheaper, older designs. Most Js seem to stink in light air, which is what we get a lot of around here.
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  #50  
Old 05-11-2013
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Re: Performance Cruisers and Racer/Cruisers

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
There are 3 J122s on Yachtworld right now.
2 of them are in the $250k range and one is over $350k. Either 2 of them are ridiculously under priced, or one is ridiculously OVER priced.
...
In what regards boats that are used for top racing the price and quality of the sails can have a substantial value, even if compares with the boat value. That is probably what explains that difference in price regarding those boats.

The price of performance boats that are used for top racing is maintained very high while those boats remain competitive at the highest level and then come down substantially when they are not anymore.

The fact the the J122 maintains yet a high value, for a boat designed almost 10 years ago, relates with the boat remaining competitive at any level. That made that boat an excellent buy for the ones that bought it when the boat come to the market and could enjoy and unusual number of years of racing at top level. Most boats don't remain competitive for so many years.

For ones that want an used fast performance boat for cruising and club racing the best time to bought it is when a top boat, like the J122 stop to be competitive at top level and lots of top racers are trying to sell the boats.

Suddenly a boat can have its value reduced for almost 50%. Because there are more sailors racing at top level with almost new boats I believe you can notice that more in Europe than in the US or Canada.

Regards

Paulo
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