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  #91  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by PalmettoSailor View Post
Its interesting how this accident has brought biases to the surface. Its clear there are lot of people that don't like the new AC boats or the format created for them, but the AC has always pushed the state of the art of boat design and the AC72's are definitely the leading edge of sail propelled craft. Also, its arguably the only thing keeping the AC alive, though there are no doubt those that would prefer to see it die rather than evolve.

There was little to no hue and cry over the boats or race format when many sailors were lost on the Farallon's or N2E (only the skipper/crews were vilified in those cases), or when VOR sailors have been lost. Some did express opposition to "cruise races" formats that resulted in the loss of Rule 62, but again it was mainly the skipper that bore the brunt of the sailing communities scorn.

For me, all these accidents and more at even lower levels or racing provide evidence of my assertion that sailing and especially racing, by its nature, is dangerous and sailors are occasionally killed participating at every level from club racing right up to the top. If you don't like the new AC boats, that's great, but don't fool yourself into thinking the new boat or format is more or less dangerous than any other. There just is no evidence to support that assertion at this point.

If you want old school mono-hull racing identical boats, there is the Congressional Cup, NYYC, One Design racing all over the country, etc.
My problem with the new AC 72's is the design itself seems dangerous, and for what benefit, yea it goes fast, but at what cost. I got no problem if a team wants to go out and build the fastest boat that is highly dangerous (and teams have and do this- and break all kinds of sailing records with them), but I don't think a race like the AC should promote the sailing of dangerous boats. The AC is supposed to be a spectator sport. I do not think the race should include an elevated risk of dying.

The other deaths in sail racing you refer were due primarily (or maybe entirely) to human error. With the AC 72's I think we got an equimpent problem.
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Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
The American football analogy is a good one. There have been many improvements to safety as the years go by, or the owners would eventually assume too much liability. Even the concussion issues lately will be addressed.

AC sailing is clearly going the other direction. The risk associated with the 72 cats is obviously much greater than the 12m.
Agreed. But it takes the concussion incidents, or Earnharts death in NASCAR, to bring attention to make the safety changes which they can make.

There is nothing more dangerous than professional bike racing. Look at the Tour de France. Hurtling down a 15% grade 13000 ft mountain at speeds in excess of 75 mph on super pressurized 3cm tires on Regular roads with only a helmet on.

There is only so much safety you can really bring into bike racing....or AC racing without ruining it. It's the athletes choice wether to assume that risk.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Chef, I thought we had a truce?

None of the analogies you used took their safety record and changed the equipment to make it worse in the following race.
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  #94  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Chef, I thought we had a truce?

None of the analogies you used took their safety record and changed the equipment to make it worse in the following race.
We do. Nothing personal or sarcastic in my post.

Do you think we shouldn't even answer each other? If so let me know as I can follow that protocol too?

In fact I agreed with what you had said for the most part

i think that the results of the previous crash caused them to include the extra oxygen in this go around. Like professional bike racing there will be a point at which they can not do much more. The risk will be inherent to the sport.
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  #95  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
...
i think that the results of the previous crash caused them to include the extra oxygen in this go around. Like professional bike racing there will be a point at which they can not do much more. The risk will be inherent to the sport.
I agree but not yet, I mean, that cannot be done more. Obviously these boats and the accidents that can happen introduces new problems to safety.

For example on this accident the sailors fell forward and the boat turned over them. It seems to me that one of the things that can have contributed to this tragedy is the auto-inflating PDF.

If the sailor had not an auto inflating PDF eventually he could have dived under the boat and swim to safety...but with a PDF pining him against the overturned boat? How could he dive? He had to get ride of the PDF and that is not easy being pushed against a boat over his head.

Of course, this is speculation and I don't know if that was the case but it is possible that they come to the conclusion that for this type of boat makes more sense a manual activated PDF.

Of course I am assuming they have auto inflating PDFs and did not yet arrived yet at this conclusion.

Regards

Paulo
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  #96  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

The thread has gotten long. I was up in Hollywood when this horrible accident occurred to my favorite team. But I'll chime in briefly anyhow.

I do like the look of the boats. And it took me a while to be onboard with cats in this AC. However, I'd kind of rather see a boat of similar size to what you see in your local harbor, cat or mono. Watching these boats, I feel like the sail is way too large for the platform of the boat.

I'm not a boater nor a design engineer. Just a new boat racing fan who watched the RC44's in my home port of San Diego and was thenceforth hooked. But I wonder about lengthening the platform maybe 1.5x, and shortening the sail system by maybe a third. Not sure how feasable all that is, but the sail is way too tall.

I don't dislike one-design racing (obviously), but I do think to some extent, the design has been part of the AC and should remain so. But, safety should be part of the design. You won't ever get the danger down to zero and still have good racing, but you can make things better.

As much as I have looked forward to AC34 going on as scheduled this year, I might be OK for the relevant people to call for a completely new design, thus delaying it into the same time next year. But I haven't really read everything related to this conversation.
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  #97  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Fstbttms View Post
That is not the case. The winner gets to choose the venue and the boat design criteria. The winner does not get to rewrite the Deed of Gift, which is the ruling document for the America's Cup.
What I meant was the rules for boat design, not rules for the race.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
We do. Nothing personal or sarcastic in my post.

Do you think we shouldn't even answer each other? If so let me know as I can follow that protocol too?

In fact I agreed with what you had said for the most part

i think that the results of the previous crash caused them to include the extra oxygen in this go around. Like professional bike racing there will be a point at which they can not do much more. The risk will be inherent to the sport.
Nope, I'm good. I thought you introduced the idea of refraining. Reply all you like.

I still don't agree with the bike race analogy. There was no significant inherent risk of dying in AC racing until recently. Arguing that the alternative is to go back to square riggers is not what anyone is suggesting. As you make advancements in the capabilities of these boats, they should not become more dangerous in the process. Race cars today are faster and more advanced than their prior generations, but are safer at the same time. That's impressive.

How hard was it to make a bigger boat with a larger wing on technology that already existed? AC has left the safety out of their advancements. Clearly there are actual competitors in the race that feel this way, as news articles are reporting.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by tommays View Post
Sorry when you have to equip everybody with crash helmets and
Besides sailing my favorite sports require helmets, protective gear, chances of bodily harm or death. If I was younger, skinnier and a better sailor I would take the risk for an opportunity to sail one of these boats.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

At this point EVERY TIME they have a bear away situation the boats are in danger of a pitch poll that can destroy the boat and kill crew

I really do not feel this is something they anticipated when scaling up the boats ?
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