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  #111  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alden68 View Post
I work in construction. According to OSHA 721 people were killed in construction accidents in 2011.

Should I stay home and not earn a living? It is orders of magnitude more dangerous than the AC.

Give me a break. $.02
I also have over 30 years in construction trade. Never been on a site where someone had a major injury. Most construction accidents are due to not following safety standards and OSHSA regs. Construction can be very safe, if safety is practiced.
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  #112  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

well said



QUOTE=c. breeze;1029672]How can you seriously talk about the abandonment of safety when you have all kinds of mandatory PPE I use by AC crews? As well as PPE which may or may not be discretionary- such as air tanks to allow 3 -4 minutes breathing underwater?

This is called risk mitigation- there are many ways to conduct a risk assessment- and then to mitigate excessive risk, in order to bring it back into the realm of acceptability.

Are we so arrogant as to believe that the teams, the designers, and the officials haven't conceived of this very scenario?

It's all just a bunch of high horsery from folks that are too timid to take on that level of risk themselves- and find it uncomfortable to live in a world where there are those who are willing to sack up and go out there life on the line for something as pointless as sailing a billionaires boat. Then on the otherhand If this guy died sailing his pearson triton singlehanded on a circumnavigation thi place would be a cacophony of blowhards demanding to know who payed for the search and rescue- if any attempt was made at all- griping like they had to sign that check themselves personally. Sailing isn't about as pointless and self indulgent an activity as anything in existence - but there's this constant chorus of those decrying sailing in races, or singlehanded, or in a small boat, or when it's windy, or if where you want to go is the same direction that the wind is comin from. So for all those who are going on about how irresponsible or unsafe all this is- I say sell your boat. Sailing is irresponsible at its core. We aren't out here shuttling goods from
Continent to continent or filling or holds with clean burning whale oil with which to keep the streetlights lit.

This guy- with a solid background that afforded him the experience to make an informed decision said "this activity is both safe and well paying enough for me to engage in"

The guys writin the checks have so far determined that their exposure to risk is also acceptable- whether or not they are out on an AC 72.

I find the prevalence of the attitude that "it's not safe enough because someone died doing it" to be at its core indicative of the absolute decay of the American spirit- which historically sought out and thrived on adventure- in pursuit of goals as lofty as "building a new nation" to as mundane as just trying to keep food on the table.

I'm no big fan of the billboard boats. I don't care who paid for it or even who built it since they aren't cranking out rides I can get a seat on anyway. - I'm interested in who designed it and who is sailing it- so maybe they can make that change- keep the boats appearance a bit less commercial.[/QUOTE]
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  #113  
Old 05-13-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I've flown aircraft to runways I can't see.

I've ridden my motorcycle across half the countries in Europe and the Alps.

I've been an instructor for deep wreck and black water rescue diving.

I've sailed offshore in severe storms and zero viz.

I know risk and my spirit is just fine. It's not about eliminating risk, it's about continually getting better at managing it and reducing incidents. I understand there are professional teams that refused to compete in this AC because they thought this boat was too risky and another currently considering pulling out. Even the X-games have begun to eliminate some events, as they are too risky, despite the fact that there is no shortage in willing competitors.
I'm maybe reading too much into Mills' and Barclays' quotes - but I have little doubt that much of the risk they were talking about was financial as much as danger. At US$10M+ a pop, for a new, unproven design that you know is going to need to be tested to breakage, that's a very tall order. Much easier to wait it out and see what happens.

The cost factor is the biggest issue to me (not the safety or necessarily the size). The cost kept too many teams on the sidelines. You're seeing the same thing in the VOR with the move to the VO65. Costs have to come down to increase participation - otherwise you have a boring race between too few compeitors.
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  #114  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

How can you say the equipment sucks? Does your boat tool along at 45mph? How many lives were lost trying to fly faster than the speed of sound? Crappy equipment strikes again right?

Ah- 20 minutes of air- both arbitrary and impossible to store without affecting mobility etc, certainly a novel approach to what is already quite a physically demanding activity. Would a scuba tank on your back help or hinder your efforts on your own (non crappy) boat?

Is it A) possible or B) likely that further hampering these crews under the weight and bulk of additional PPE designed to comfort those watching from home would result in less efficient crews- and more frequent catastrophic capsize or other sailing related failure?

If I were paying the bills there would be a likeness of myself giving the finger in the spinnaker. Properly befitting both my ego and my desire for a less commercial appearance. Sadly- no spinnaker= no canvas that I find suitable for my purpose= making my decision not to finance an AC72 far more simple than any debate about the inherent risks involved in sailing the beast.


I'm sorry- I just reread your post and it is clear that you have applied a well trained eye to the situation with an acumen that I couldn't hope to match- and that intense scrutiny has led to the conclusion that "the equipment sucks" precisely which equipment sucks- and could you be a bit specific in regards to "sucks" ie "is under spec for the anticipated loads" or "demonstrates an incomplete understanding of physics" etc- I don't know- something a bit more quantitative.

I'm just beginning a refit- and I don't want my equipment to "suck"
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  #115  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm maybe reading too much into Mills' and Barclays' quotes - but I have little doubt that much of the risk they were talking about was financial as much as danger. At US$10M+ a pop, for a new, unproven design that you know is going to need to be tested to breakage, that's a very tall order. Much easier to wait it out and see what happens.

The cost factor is the biggest issue to me (not the safety or necessarily the size). The cost kept too many teams on the sidelines. You're seeing the same thing in the VOR with the move to the VO65. Costs have to come down to increase participation - otherwise you have a boring race between too few compeitors.
That is not what these guys are saying:
2013 America's Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2013 America's Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"AC 72 Safety Controversy
On May 9th 2013 the Swedish team first AC 72 flipped in the second overturn of these boats in under a year resulting in the death of olympic medalist Andrew James Simpson, one of the members of the team. He was a British sailor nicknamed Bart who had won a gold medal at the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing, as crew for skipper Iain Percy in the Star class.[21][22]The AC 72 capsized while sailors were training Thursday in the San Francisco bay just north of Treasure Island. According to media reports structural damage may have been the cause.[23] Emergency crews performed CPR on one of the sailors, according to the San Francisco Fire Department. Ten people on board were transferred into an Oracle Racing support boat.

Investigations into the incident will be led by the U.S. Coastguard to determine whether this was an isolated incident or if the current America’s Cup safety regulations are sufficient. This was the second of the new 72-foot catamarans to crash in training.[24]

The power and speed of the catamarans used in the America’s Cup, rather than traditional one-hulled boats, has attracted criticisms in the past after Sir Keith Mills cancelled his British Team Origin campaign for the 2011 event, due to concerns over safety.[25] Stephen Barclay, the chief executive officer of the America's Cup Event Authority, has promised a full inquiry into the events which led to Simpson’s death and has refused to rule out the possibility of postponing the July 4 start of the Louis Vuitton Cup series, which determines the challenger to compete in the America’s Cup.[26] The future of the 2013 America’s Cup was put further in doubt after Patrizio Bertelli, the owner of team Luna Rossa – who are due to compete in this year’s race, told organisers he was considering withdrawing his team from the competition on safety grounds.[27]"
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  #116  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Sorry - I meant Mills and Bertelli (not Barclay). I still stand by the comment though. They talk about safety - they think about cost. I have little doubt about that.

Think about it- no one is keeping them from designing a wing full of holes that can be fully depowered in a turn. Of course, they wouldn't be competitive, and we're back to cost.
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 05-13-2013 at 09:23 PM.
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  #117  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I've flown aircraft to runways I can't see.

I've ridden my motorcycle across half the countries in Europe and the Alps.

I've been an instructor for deep wreck and black water rescue diving.

I've sailed offshore in severe storms and zero viz.

I know risk and my spirit is just fine. It's not about eliminating risk, it's about continually getting better at managing it and reducing incidents. I understand there are professional teams that refused to compete in this AC because they thought this boat was too risky and another currently considering pulling out. Even the X-games have begun to eliminate some events, as they are too risky, despite the fact that there is no shortage in willing competitors.
My quote o you had nothing to do with questioning your courage , experience- what have you- by way of clarification.

It was specifically to address your Statement regarding abandoning safety or whatever- I'm not digging back to requote it- that was ridiculous in light of the fact that crews this go round are wearing far more PPE than in previous iterations- and that this is specifically in response to the touchier nature of the sleds- and faster speeds reached.

The rest of it had little to do with you specifically and the overall attitude of timidity and nervousness that is so prevalent in this thread as well as other threads that address safety. Odd that on this board it mos frequently comes back to safety- while so rarely coming back to adventure. Sad really.
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  #118  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Sorry - I meant Mills and Bertelli (not Barclay). I still stand by the comment though. They talk about safety - they think about cost. I have little doubt about that.
I take people for their word, until they prove otherwise.
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  #119  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
My quote o you had nothing to do with questioning your courage , experience- what have you- by way of clarification.

It was specifically to address your Statement regarding abandoning safety or whatever- I'm not digging back to requote it- that was ridiculous in light of the fact that crews this go round are wearing far more PPE than in previous iterations- and that this is specifically in response to the touchier nature of the sleds- and faster speeds reached.

The rest of it had little to do with you specifically and the overall attitude of timidity and nervousness that is so prevalent in this thread as well as other threads that address safety. Odd that on this board it mos frequently comes back to safety- while so rarely coming back to adventure. Sad really.
And tell us about your adventures.
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  #120  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

In the world of yacht racing - I never take anyone at his word. Heh-heh.
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