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  #141  
Old 05-14-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

So, the boats are set... That's a done deal
Venue is set... Also a done deal
Administrations have hired what are arguably the bes workers money can buy- done deal

As mentioned above rescheduling "work" may - that means "might" have a short term positive impact on safety - though in the long term actually stands to work against an over all safer "work environment" in this case.

So... We have crews outfitted in more/ improved PPE than in previous events- as a last line of defense...

Last of defense or not- I fail to see how an improved last line I defense represents an "abandonment of safety considerations" or whatever the the exact quote was.

So while that is an instructive excerpt, it doesn't really address the point I made.

Which is only this- these guys aren't bounty crew. They are about as well trained and informed as anyone can get. They are in fact THE ONLY SUBJECT MATTER EXPERTS. None of us- or anyone else has the kind of experience they do- and the fact that they (those who do) remain willing to participate sends a very clear message "we, the participants of these events, certify and endorse that it is safe"

Maybe qualify that with an "enough."

There's lots of folks out there who wouldn't take the gamble- and the majority of them will never, could never be in the position to make that decision- why? Underqualified.

Are you qualified? I'm not. I wish I was- I'm confident that getting to participate in this activity (I'm not calling it sailing right now) would be worth it. The cutting edge. Flight in 2 mediums, air and water- simultaneously.

People are shocked they can't jibe etc- why? It's essentially brand new. This has as much in common with moth as it does a laser- not a lot.


So maybe give me, the crews, the engineers, and the wright brothers a break with all this "it's just not safe"


*its also possible that a mundane workplace leads to mundane views on workplace safety. I'm not willing to take my life in my own hands and run a lathe in a machine shop jrunk wearing a necktie- which leads me to this- what are the real threats to sailors- sun, and hydration

Yet hundreds of sailors are out every weekend DRINKING ALCOHOL, while not drinking water and wearing sunscreen. Now- much like the lathe example above- that's a little high risk for me personally. So- I utilize my last line of defense (PPE) as well as mitigate se
Of the environmental factors- IE, no booze on board (at least underway), and plenty of water. It's the responsible thing to do.
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Last edited by c. breeze; 05-14-2013 at 04:25 PM.
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  #142  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
Anyone who has dealt with workplace safety knows that PPE is the last line of defense. Here's a good reference from OSHA:
Injecting OSHA requirements in this discussion. Just doesnt seem really relevant

Racing in ANY sport is much more dangerous inherently as you are testing limits. Sitting on top of a liquid fuel or solid fuel rocket isn't safe. Skiing downhill isn't safe. Going aroung the world singlehanded isn't safe.

You will never convince many of the cautious sailors on here that any racing should allowed except in a bathtub with Wind less than 20 knots. And a 30000 lb monohull.


To me interfering in the AC in the steed of safety is not justifiable and questionable reasoning to pick on this one example of sport. If you don't like the format, the catamarans, or the big billionaires, that's a different is cushion.

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No way. Next you'll want the Tour de France racers to use "big wheel tricycles"' ,
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  #143  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Injecting OSHA requirements in this discussion. Just doesnt seem really relevant...
Totally relevant. I'm not suggesting that crewing on these boats should meet OSHA standards. But I am advocating the universality of the concept that work practices are always the first line of defense, and PPE the last line of defense.

For example - Rule #1: Don't fall overboard. The PFD is is the last resort - once you're in the water, your chances of survival are drastically reduced.

Second example: Keep your head out of the way of the boom. A helmet would never fully protect you.

Etc etc.

The concept is universal, and totally relevant here. The person that I was responding to was suggesting that the PPE requirements prove that safety was not abandoned. I think the presence of PPE proves little.

AC is a dangerous endeavor, and will always be. But I think it could be done more safely than it is now.

That's my opinion, based on years of taking the lead in workplace safety. You're not going to change my opinion on this one.
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  #144  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
Putting words in my mouth then, are you? Not to strong with conjugation, perhaps? I doubt many or any people enjoyed seeing a guy drown either. Maybe re-read what you quoted- and recognize that I was offering potential future discussion- rather than discussing an event that had already transpired. In fact it was this event in the past which would generate this future discussion.
Sorry, you'll just have to pardon my abysmal reading comprehension skills, I suppose...

So, are you suggesting that a a future destruction of another AC boat, or a repeat of the sort of accident that occurred last week, is not still within the realm of possibility, and the sort of thing the organizers and competitors might yet again have to "deal with"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze

I would also think that all those griping about it being nothing more than an ego stroke for billionaires would enjoy seeing Ellison and company, as well as the other teams, told- "hey- you got the boat you wanted in the venue you wanted- now deal with it"
Seems to me, LATITUDE 38 strikes the right note, here (bolded portion mine):

Quote:

While the edgy, ultra-high-speed nature of AC72 racing was meant to spur Cup enthusiasm from both sailors and non-sailors, Thursday's accident has caused some Cup-watchers to claim that technical innovations of this new generation of boats are not yet sufficiently tested and refined to be safe, especially in brisk SF Bay conditions.

No doubt a wide range of opinions and concerns will be expressed tomorrow when representatives from all four AC teams (Oracle Team USA, Artemis Racing, Luna Rossa Challenge and Emirates Team New Zealand) will sit down together for a earnest discussion of the mishap and its consequences. "The meeting with the teams is a crucial next step," Murray said. "We need to establish an open flow of information to ensure this review meets its goals of fact-finding and putting us in a position to recommend changes, if necessary." We expect this will be a closed-door session, and we suspect some strong opinions will be voiced about the viability of AC72s for Cup racing in typical Bay conditions, as there have been critical grumblings — especially from the New Zealanders — for many months. (Naturally, we would love to be a fly on the wall of those sessions.)

As exciting as AC72s are to watch, in light of Simpson's death we, too, have to wonder if research and development of this new class of boats isn't still too much in the experimental phase to be ready for competition before a world-wide audience just 51 days from now. Reacting to Thursday's tragedy, the German team has dropped out of September's Red Bull Youth America's Cup (although those races will be aboard seemingly more stable AC45s.) "The death of one sailor is reason enough,” said team founder Oliver Schwall. "We also feel that our decision has to send an important message after this disaster. It’s time (for event organizers) to start thinking."

As we mourn the loss of a great athlete, we also feel empathy for Barkley and Murray as, ultimately, the buck stops with them — we certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now. Although some critics are vociferously calling for the cancellation or postponement of the Cup, major TV and promotional contracts have been signed, infrastructure is in place, and probably close to a half-billion dollars has been spent by the teams and other so-called stake-holders.

Latitude 38 - 'Lectronic Latitude
No easy solutions, with an event of this magnitude, and this much money involved... Allow me to make one more analogy to motor racing, the sport I know best...

I now have the same sense of foreboding as I've had going into particular race weekends in the past... Most recently, the IndyCar season finale 2 years ago in Las Vegas...

Everyone in the paddock knew the potential for disaster that race presented.. Running a field of 34 on a wide, high-banked 1.5 mile oval, cars flat-out 100% of each lap, everyone I knew fully expected someone to get hurt... Right from the opening laps, it was obvious the format was simply all wrong, and the race only made it to Lap 11 before the reigning Indy 500 Dan Wheldon lost his life in a horrific shunt which involved virtually half the field...

Hopefully, my gut feeling is wrong about this one, and the remainder of the AC will be run without a hitch... I wouldn't put money on it, however, and can only hope that any further calamity will only involve damage to the equipment, and not the sailors themselves... AC racing never has carried anything remotely close to the sort of risk that motor racing does, in entire 130+ year history of the Cup, only ONE sailor had ever been killed prior to last week... What might be deemed an 'acceptable risk' in a sport like motor racing still has no place in AC racing, in my view...
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
....I fail to see how an improved last line I defense represents an "abandonment of safety considerations" or whatever the the exact quote was.

.....
I suspect it was my comment, but I haven't gone back to find it either. I did reference the abandonment of safety with respect to designing a new boat that increased risk, unlike every other sport that fights to decrease it. The fact that they are trying to mitigate that increase with PPE would not change my point. The net is still an increase. I believe they could have amped up performance and not increased risk to the point that anyone was going to have any significant risk of death.
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  #146  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Injecting OSHA requirements in this discussion. Just doesnt seem really relevant

Racing in ANY sport is much more dangerous inherently as you are testing limits. Sitting on top of a liquid fuel or solid fuel rocket isn't safe. Skiing downhill isn't safe. Going aroung the world singlehanded isn't safe.

You will never convince many of the cautious sailors on here that any racing should allowed except in a bathtub with Wind less than 20 knots. And a 30000 lb monohull.


To me interfering in the AC in the steed of safety is not justifiable and questionable reasoning to pick on this one example of sport. If you don't like the format, the catamarans, or the big billionaires, that's a different is cushion.

Dave





No way. Next you'll want the Tour de France racers to use "big wheel tricycles"' ,
The racers, owners, promoters and all others are now looking into the cause of the accident and what can be done to prevent future accidents. That is all we are doing here. Maybe some of us carry it to the extreme and say ban multi-hulls altogether, but hey this is the internet. Seeing this is the first death as a result of a capsize of any boat in the history of the AC, it should be looked at. And with the previous capsize of the AC72, we are lucky there was not another death. There is nothing wrong with trying to make things safer, in fact it is what people that take the most risk do.

From:
Surf Rescue: Brian Keaulana - National Geographic Adventure Magazine

Winter storms bring some of the biggest waves in the world to Oahu's North Shore, and few are as familiar with giant surf as Brian Keaulana.

An innovator in water safety risk management, Keaulana is routinely tapped to teach the best big-wave riders in the world how to react to a wipeout in gargantuan (40-foot-plus or 12-meter-plus) waves. His uncanny ability to rescue surfers from seemingly impossible situations makes Keaulana an incredible asset at big-wave competitions around the globe.

In one particularly notable rescue, in 1993, on Oahu's northwest shore, Keaulana saved a tourist trapped in the "Moi Hole"—a sea cave nestled among a particularly violent convergence of volcanic rock, heavy swells, and churning tides. The fact that Keaulana was able to get in (and out) in one piece was heroic; that he did so using a Jet Ski was revolutionary.

Soon after, Keaulana was promoted to lifeguard captain of the Makaha coastline, a position first held by his father, Buffalo, also a legendary waterman.

Then, Hollywood came calling: Keaulana has worked on Waterworld, In God's Hands, and Blue Crush and today is one of the most sought-after surfing stuntmen in the industry (he's currently working on the second season of Beyond the Break). And somehow the 45-year-old still finds time to compete, taking first in the stand-up paddling and tandem surfing competitions in his father's Big Board Surfing Classic last February.

Adventure spoke with Keaulana about using Jet Skis to save lives, the risk management while riding giants, and who you don't want to be with in the water.

How long have you been a lifeguard?
Keaulana: It's hard to say, exactly. My father has always been a big influence. He's one of the pioneer surfers and was born and raised right on the beach at Makaha on the west end of Oahu. He was the only person appointed by the governor to be the lifeguard on Oahu's West Shore. I grew up seeing my father rescue so many people, it was a lifestyle.


How did using Jet Skis for big-wave rescues come about?
Keaulana: In 1993, I was surfing Waimea Bay in the Eddie Aikau [Big Wave Invitational] and I wiped out pretty bad. When I was tumbling underwater, I was thinking, God here I am, in the same position of the people I see when they drown. When I came up, the next wave was even bigger. There with me in the impact zone was a friend on a Jet Ski saying, "Brian, you alright?" I relaxed and focused on that—that, wow, there's somebody right here.

Was that a ligh-bulb-over-the-head kind of moment?
Keaulana: I was just amazed that a piece of technology could get into a zone that dangerous. I went out and bought a Yamaha Waverunner and started practicing making rescues. It was hard to pick the surfers up, so I modified a bodyboard with waterholes and adapted it to more like a sled so that you could grab on to it when it went by. We started practicing with our own guys and brought it to a contest. From then on it was kind of history.

You've taken classes in military risk management.
Keaulana: They were talking about bombs and explosions and my friends were saying, "Brian, what are we doing in this class?" I was converting everything the instructor said into impact zone, or currents … putting everything they were saying into the context of being in the water. When you think about it, the ocean can be a war zone.


How do you surf a giant wave with minimal risk?
Keaulana: For any break, you need to know it like you know your own house. You need to know the topography of the reef, the caves, the crevices, what marine life frequents, which way the currents flow depending on swell direction, wind direction, tide, how high, low, so that you know exactly what creates certain types of dangers. What's really important to us is where the rubbish line is. This is the area where all the currents dump driftwood and debris. If we're going after someone who's knocked out it's the first place we'd check.

Is there anyone who rides big waves who shouldn't?
Keaulana: There are surfers who're out there for money and recognition. Then there're the adrenaline junkies. It depends what drives a person, because then you find out what their behavior is. You want to know if you're dealing with an individual or a team player. When you surf really large waves, it's not if but when something goes down, you want to know who's going to back you up.

Last edited by casey1999; 05-14-2013 at 05:58 PM.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
......You will never convince many of the cautious sailors on here that any racing should allowed except in a bathtub with Wind less than 20 knots. And a 30000 lb monohull......
Isn't that just an inflammatory way of mocking those that disagree with you? I don't even believe you really think anyone actually feels that way.

Those that object, including me, are not overly cautious. We see no reason that billionaires should risk the lives of their paid chauffeurs for their and others amusement. This could be done more safely and should be, IMO. Doesn't make me a bathtub sailor.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

People are shocked they can't jibe etc- why? It's essentially brand new. This has as much in common with moth as it does a laser- not a lot.


The pitch-pole thing has been and issue on cats since the Hobie 14' because it has such small holes it was very easy to bury one But you did Not get pitched all that far

Now your pretty much getting pitch-poled from a if you cant hold on or its a fatal height
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by tommays View Post
People are shocked they can't jibe etc- why? It's essentially brand new. This has as much in common with moth as it does a laser- not a lot.


The pitch-pole thing has been and issue on cats since the Hobie 14' because it has such small holes it was very easy to bury one But you did Not get pitched all that far

Now your pretty much getting pitch-poled from a if you cant hold on or its a fatal height
Agree. I used to sail Pridle 16 across the Ches Bay. Once I was midway across from Annapolis and single hand with full sail and tried to tack. She would not go with the 25 knot southerly and 5 foot wind swell. Just could not get her through the winds eye. I really wanted to tack as there was a huge ship headed up the bay and I was getting ready to cross the shipping channel. I did not want to jibe as I knew for sure I would capsize the boat when the wind caught. I crossed the bow of the ship and headed to the calm of the western shore where I could tack and sailed back to annapois Put the Prindle away and got my windsurfer. I had a few pitch poles with the P16. Never wanted a P18 as I was afraid of getting impalled on the single spreader that mast had.

Last edited by casey1999; 05-14-2013 at 06:26 PM.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Isn't that just an inflammatory way of mocking those that disagree with you? I don't even believe you really think anyone actually feels that way.

Those that object, including me, are not overly cautious. We see no reason that billionaires should risk the lives of their paid chauffeurs for their and others amusement. This could be done more safely and should be, IMO. Doesn't make me a bathtub sailor.
Gracious no I wasn't mocking you as a bathtub sailor at all. I was saying we could get so safety conscious that all we would have left in races in a bathtub with less than 20 knots of wind.

Minnie I am confused,

You chide me for my hyperbole, it was no more hyperbole than your statement mocking the PROFESSIONAL sailors who race in the AC as " paid chauffeurs to billionaires."

I believe the individual who lost his life, Brian Simpson was an Olympic Champion wasn't he. So are you then referring to him as a "chauffeur to a billionaire and others amusement."

These people who race are the pinnacle of the racing sailors around the from around world. Have you looked at the list of names and Captains who race in this and the AC45 series. Russel Couutz, James Spithill, Micheal Menninger,
Nathan Otterbridge, Tom Slingsbury, just to name a few. The crews of the boats are the tops in Olympic sailing around the world.

To call these men "chauffers" is mocking them. They are the best. They are the brightest. The are the cutting edge. They certainly are to be respected as the ultimate racing sailors. The certainly have enough brains and common sense to make an informed decision on risking their lives as opposed to being pawns of billionaires.

Damn Id give my left ,,,,, to go racing and sailing for a day with Russel Cuuntz or James Spithill
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