Another America’s Cup entry destroyed - Page 17 - SailNet Community

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  #161  
Old 05-14-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Technically, they have a choice. Practically, how do they turn down being crew on an AC boat? The opportunity may never come again. Damn the torpedoes.

All other spectator sports have made incremental efforts to be safer year upon year. Nothing bad about amusing us, we only owe them better than the risk of the AC 72s in return.
This isn't about amusing us. These men race and compete from within and would do it if no one watched. It's their nature.

So a top notch sailor, a gold medal winner in the Olympics will not get another chance? There are a few of them actually. Russel Cuuntz won't get another chance? James Spithill won't get another chance? Does really ring true does it?

Many of these men will be in the Volvo and other dangerous Races testing the edge. And again, and again.

It's what they do. They are not coerced by anyone else. Its not like the Bounty crew who had no experience, or if they said no wouldn't get another ride. They do it by choice. Their choice. They are driven by their own competition from within. They are men with free thought not chauffeurs or little boys.

God bless Simpson. God bless the Five sailors who have died in the Volvo races, They died reaching for the goals the set for themselves. God bless the wife and children he left behind.
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  #162  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by PalmettoSailor View Post

I read some of these posts and am reminded of Aesop's Fox and the grapes.
Yeah, here's some more 'sour grapes' from two of the bravest, most accomplished sailors on the planet:

Webb Chiles... 5 solo circumnavigations, first American to sail around Cape Horn alone, sailed halfway around the world in an 18' open boat... Hardly a timid soul:

Quote:

wrong boat?

Our single handing pal Webb Chiles offers a brief comment on the AC tragedy…

Sailing is not ever going to become mainstream. Hell, soccer isn’t even mainstream in the United States. And some people think that by creating radical, unsound and inherently unsafe boats, sailing is going to get up there with Nascar and the NFL? I don’t think so; and for that matter I don’t even think it desirable. Harbors, marinas and anchorages are already crowded enough. Here’s a quote from a Wired piece about Thursday’s America’s Cup fatality.

The Oracle crash last October happened in much worse conditions, and in much rougher seas. The team was risking a turn in a twenty-five knot wind, with an ebb tide that was running at six knots. The new America’s Cup boats are powered with a solid wing instead of a soft sail, which makes them very efficient, but it also means that they cannot be de-powered. The turning maneuver in high winds is greatly feared by sailors, who call it the “death zone.

“Much worse conditions” “Much rougher seas” “risking a turn in twenty-five knot wind” “high winds…greatly feared by sailors, who call it the ‘death zone.’ ” ???

If you are on a boat in which making a turn in 25 knots of wind puts you in a ‘death zone’, you are on the wrong boat.

wrong boat? | Sailing Anarchy
And Grant Dalton... 5 Whitbread/Volvo Races, skippered the maxi cat CLUB MED to victory in The Race in 2001, setting the record for the fastest circumnavigation at the time... Managing Director of Team New Zealand, here's what he said after ORACLE's capsize last November:

Quote:

Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton previously told Fairfax Media about his misgivings and yesterday's accident appears to have justified those.

The wind limits for cup racing have been placed at 33 knots at this stage although Dalton is "highly doubtful" they can be raced in that wind.

"These boats will be terrifying in a big breeze," he said.

Again, that's from the man who skippered this 120-footer RTW in 62 days, via the Great Capes and Southern Ocean...


Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-14-2013 at 11:18 PM.
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  #163  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

If there weren't any cameras and there wasn't any prestige- these guys would be out there doing this.


It's as much about pushing yourself as far as you can go- as much as it is about pushing the equipment and changing the game. Men make the challenge so they can rise to it. Are the AC72s ready? Hell no. They aren't robust enough- they can't be adequately depowered we all know that.

Again- all the better reason to make these guys run the boats they chose in the venue they chose. Don't soften the challenge- nothing is gained from that- keep the bar that they set for themselves- and be amazed at what you see come out of it.

Chrisake- let the human spirit soar- let theseem rise to the occasion- tame the beasts- and demonstrate again the indomitable will to adapt and overcome.


It's certainly no for everyone. As for workplace safety- risk assessment, risk management- if your nine to five fits into the scope of what OSHA thinks you should do, and you aren't factoring in concepts like ground and air medevac, ammo resupply, vehicle crossroads, most likely and most dangerous courses of enemy action- so on and so forth- if you don't have team leaders doing PCC's and squad leaders performing PCIs- I you don't do rehearsals and rock drills- if you don't train to the point that your actions become a collective action rapidly executed without applying a deliberate decision-making process- we probably don't have much to discuss when comes to "safety in the workplace"

Because you just haven't had to lay it on the line.

And no- I'm not going to discuss my myriad adventuresssss- outside if those outlined earlier.


Minne- yes it was your statement re abandonment of safety considerations etc. I get distracted by broad brush strokes that leave myriad streaks and gaps in the overall finish...

And the simple fact remains- the guys who are the sole subject matter experts are by and large staying on the boats.

Only the second fatality in 130 years? Remarkable. Why aren't we celebrating that track record- It should be held aloft as an example to other sports.


Anyone remember the opening sequence of the right stuff? Talking about the sound barrier and the bell x1- it wound up with this quote "men came to the high deserts of California to ride it- they were called test pilots, and no one knew there names"

It's not about fame. It's not about money. It's just that voice inside your head that tells you to hurry up when there's someone walking a few steps ahead or behind you. Of you don't have it- you'll never understand but it won't let you rest. It says "hear that- they're right behind you- maybe catching up- maybe not- maybe they just think you can't get away" he says "they are right there- you have to pass them- or they'll think you can't". It says "jeez dude- it's a hill- just run up it- what's the problem- why aren't you trying?"

So if you don't hear that voice everyday- pushing you every step turning your every waking moment into a contest with yourself- because your fellow man isn't always there to compete against- you might be a happy and content soul- but that's all you'll ever be. And you'll never grasp what makes a man willing to go out and leave it all out on the field- holding nothing back for the return trip.

To me that is just impossibly bland.
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Last edited by c. breeze; 05-14-2013 at 11:40 PM.
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  #164  
Old 05-15-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
If there weren't any cameras and there wasn't any prestige- these guys would be out there doing this.
Hmmm, I don't think so... Who would pay the bills?

Take away the cameras, and the prestige - these logos would disappear overnight... Corporations are not in the habit of spending millions to plaster their brand on the proverbial tree falling in a forest, with nobody around to hear the sound...

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  #165  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post

Anyone remember the opening sequence of the right stuff? Talking about the sound barrier and the bell x1- it wound up with this quote "men came to the high deserts of California to ride it- they were called test pilots, and no one knew there names"

It's not about fame. It's not about money. It's just that voice inside your head that tells you to hurry up when there's someone walking a few steps ahead or behind you. Of you don't have it- you'll never understand but it won't let you rest. It says "hear that- they're right behind you- maybe catching up- maybe not- maybe they just think you can't get away" he says "they are right there- you have to pass them- or they'll think you can't". It says "jeez dude- it's a hill- just run up it- what's the problem- why aren't you trying?"

So if you don't hear that voice everyday- pushing you every step turning your every waking moment into a contest with yourself- because your fellow man isn't always there to compete against- you might be a happy and content soul- but that's all you'll ever be. .

Probably just pasteing this in anywhere else in this thread where I feel I should respond- as I just really don't have much else to say about it. What alot of y'all need to feel- is clearly not the same as what these guys need to feel- be it the owners or the crews- and so you act in a tremendously condescending fashion toward it. You sound like PTA moms. I often feel this is an arrogance born of insecurity- sort of the self inflated notion that if someone does sailing its because you were a bit rash with your advice in sailnet- sort of the opposite of false bravado. There is this prevalent attitude that you need to save the rest of sailing world from itself.

If its not there- if that's not the attitude- it sure comes off as such. Now don't get me wrong- I'm really enjoying the discussion and a lot of good points have been brought up- and we are already seeing developments that to an extent had been discussed here- so it's not without merit. Just passionate on my views about the dangers of taming the human spirit
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  #166  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by mad_machine View Post
I would prefer AC to be raced in a one design format. Everyone on the same style boat, same style sails, same number of people. They it would be a race about strategy and crew skills
If watching one-design racing is your thing, go down to your nearest sailing club, you'll probably see it there.

AC has for more than a century been at the cutting edge of sailing - this is not a club sport.

Personally, I can't wait to see these boats do battle. I have watched ETNZ and Luna Rosa sailing in our local harbor and it is breathtaking to see them sailing that fast that a 400hp chase boat can't catch them.

Bring it on!
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  #167  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Injecting OSHA requirements in this discussion. Just doesnt seem really relevant

No way. Next you'll want the Tour de France racers to use "big wheel tricycles"' ,
I think OSHA should have a special division to regulate all international sporting events. I might have to miss the Olympics following the new "Sporting Safety" division takes over.

That reminds me I had decided to boycott the next summer Olympics when the IOC canceled Wrestling in favor of Rythmic Gymnastics.
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  #168  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Yeah, here's some more 'sour grapes' from two of the bravest, most accomplished sailors on the planet:

Webb Chiles... 5 solo circumnavigations, first American to sail around Cape Horn alone, sailed halfway around the world in an 18' open boat... Hardly a timid soul:



And Grant Dalton... 5 Whitbread/Volvo Races, skippered the maxi cat CLUB MED to victory in The Race in 2001, setting the record for the fastest circumnavigation at the time... Managing Director of Team New Zealand, here's what he said after ORACLE's capsize last November:



Again, that's from the man who skippered this 120-footer RTW in 62 days, via the Great Capes and Southern Ocean...

Jon,

Would you not agree that these boats have shifted the paradigm to the point these guys are somewhat out of their experience zone?

Yes, 25 knots on any of our boats is not that big a deal, then again we won't be doing 35-40 knots in that wind.

I think its more accurate to say, turning any sailboat that's doing 35-40 knots is going to be terrifying.

I'm not trying to say I think these boats are SAFE. I'm saying, that racing is dangerous, and racing the fastest, most cutting edge boats against other similar boats is about as dangerous as it gets. I expect these teams will be taking a harder look at what they can do to quickly de-power to reduce the chances of this happening again. NASCAR didn't become as safe as it currently is overnight, and a lot of drivers paid for those safety lessons in blood. What I am saying is, that's the nature of the beast.

I share the opinion that this format is ever going to make AC racing mainstream.
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  #169  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Agree with Jon on this one. We've watched AC in light air off S.D. and heavy air more then once. These boats are fascinating but a distortion - a very small segment- of what sailing is about. It has become a ninch race. Much like the boarders and planers racing in ditches to get flat water while they go for speed records. Like the difference between the salt flats and general road racing. This is not to take away from the technology, skill and courage of this endeavor but it makes for high light films not not engagement for the general public.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Ah yes. As opposed to the good old days when everyone loves watching the AC...
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