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  #221  
Old 05-16-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
I know there is an irreconcilable difference of opinion on this, but I maintain that the crew have little to no actual choice. That discussion with their wives would go like this, hypothetically:

"I was offered a spot on an AC team."

"Isn't that incredibly dangerous and these new boats might really crash into each other and hurt people? I'm worried about the kids."

"Yes, but if I say no, I will never be offered another opportunity like it. I have to say yes, or hurt my career."

JMO.


That makes sense except these guys many of them were Olympic Champions, Gold medal winners, already at the tops of their sport in many ways.

I have been faced with career choices before as I am sure you have. I have given up advancement early on because I felt it wasn't a good move for my family and wouldn't be there enough time for them, let alone dangerous.

Quote:
I maintain that the crew have little to no actual choice
I really cannot understand how you say they have no choice. Of course they have choice. It isn't slavery. No one is compelling them to do it. They have free will. Saying they have no choice means no ownership for their actions.

What I think is that the enticement is greater than the risk to them. Two things go with that. These guys are SUPER competitive so the NEED to be the best and the fastest overrules sometimes their decision making. Secondly never underestimate the individual ego factor. This feeds that for them also.

All of them could have great careers and good money making careers based on what they had done in the Olympics and before the AC races. They themselves choose.

Saying they had no choice is like saying Tiger Woods had no choice but to follow his inner pressures and have multiple affairs on his wife. Saying they had no choice is like saying Bobby Bonds had no choice but to take steroids to stay competitive. They have no ownership for their actions

They have choice and this is what they chose to do, Yes make it as safe as possible without intruding and destroying what it is. There will be another iteration in the next AC. I venture to say no matter what it is they wont be putting restrictor plates in the boats.

Dave
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  #222  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

And again- it's just so terribly condescending. Oh these poor dumb brutes- they haven't any choice in the matter- it's up to us to protect them. It's the sailnet PTA mom syndrome.
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  #223  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't understand why the Nascar comparison. Nascar as a form of racing is looked at a particular American thing by the World's top racing community. There are not a top pilot that wants to race in the Nascar series except if a huge amount of money is offered to him and even so many woold refuse becaise that would mean the end of his carrier as a top pilot. Regarding racing Nascar is not top racing, not top technology, not top pilots and all the world except US won't give a rat's ass about it.

You guys act like the America's cup was an American thing or if the Americans were the ones more interested in it. They are not. There is a much bigger interest in the America's cup (as it is in all sail racing) in Europe, Australia or New Zealand.

If you want to go to car racing analogy stop with that ridiculous analogy with a technically back water very limited (to US) and particular form of auto racing and compare it with the one that has top internationalization, top technology, top pilots and top cars: the F1. The AC 72 are for other sailboats as the F1 is for other cars.



Yes, accidents happen in top racing at top speed, in F1 or on the AC if that one is raced in top boats at top speed. Who wants less?

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, trust me, I fully appreciate how much more apt is the comparison of AC racing to F1, as opposed to BASSCAR...

However, we are discussing a premier yachting event taking place in America at the moment, and the discussion largely centers around the efforts and measures taken to make the event more intriguing to the American general public... F1 is so low in our general awareness of worldwide motorsport for many of the same reasons that yacht racing is... Poll the average American to name the most notable motor racing fatality, for example, I would guess close to 90% in this country would name Dale Earnhardt... I'm not sure much more than 1 in 10 of Americans have a clue who Ayrton Senna was, on the other hand...

I think one comparison between this generation of AC boats and NASCAR still applies, however... When these AC72s are up to speed, they possess nothing remotely close to the remarkable ability of an FI car to change direction quickly... in terms of 'nimbleness', they seem to be much closer to a 3,500 pound Sprint Cup car being pressed into a 30 degree banking at 200 mph... When things start going wrong, for the most part the driver's just along for the ride...

btw, have you seen what the former F1 designer Mike Gascoyne is now up to?

http://sailinganarchy.com/2013/05/15/f1-to-gor/


Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-16-2013 at 12:44 PM.
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  #224  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...

btw, have you seen what the former F1 designer Mike Gascoyne is now up to?

f1 to gor | Sailing Anarchy

No I did not know, but it seems to me that the only thing he is up to is having the good taste (and I hope the sense of business) to Sponsor a great solo British solo sailor in a great race that I hope it will be far bigger in the next edition: A circumnavigation race on 40 class racers with a duo crew (Round-the-world race).

The boat (Caterham Challenge) will be an Aquilaria RC3 40class racer, the new version of a production racer designed by Marc Lombard.

Akilaria Class 40, Akilaria 9.50 - Akilaria Europe chantier Mc Tec Boats Tunisie

By the way, I love Caterham. It is almost impossible to desire the same car since a kid but that is what happens to me and the Lotus 7 designed by another car genius (Colin Chapman) 60 years ago. As you know the car today is called Caterham and it is as fast and amusing to drive as it was the 7 on its days.

Since they are sponsoring racing sailboats let me go a bit out and show you this (imagine how those guys on the Ferraris and Porsches, with 3 times the horsepower and 5 time the cost should be feeling not being able to go away from those oldies. That are the kind of "old shoes" I like):





Regards

Paulo
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  #225  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Minnewaska & Casey - I did not say that there should not be a root cause analysis; and some mitigation of risk. But to say that the entire AC72 fleet should be scrapped is a bit extreme don't you think?

I'd say that the boats should sail in less wind (like in the previous AC monohull events) but it's rare that the winds are lower than 25kts in the summer afternoons here on SF Bay. There have been days where Oracle did their practice sail on the South side of the SF Bay Bridge, likely because wind conditions were too high on the central bay; and we are still early in the sailing season here.

I don't really see much difference between an AC-72 flipping over or the larger offshore racing cats that have done so out in the middle of the ocean somewhere. At least these boats have trained rescue crews on chase boats. A 40' fall into water would not be fatal but falling against the wing sail could be. Spithill broke ribs when the 45 tipped over; so I'd assume injuries could be worse if someone fell onto the wing of the 72's. Tethers could be another safety consideration; but I don't think someone sailing a boat that has the potential to flip over would want to be clipped to it either.
1. After a complete review, then it could be decide if the AC 72's should be scrapped all together.

2. I would rather see a boat design that can handle any wind strength below say 45 knots. That is just my opinion. But to me a boat should be able to handle high winds.

3. My opinion is the AC should not be as risky of a race as say an open ocean around the world race. I think the risk of death in the AC should be a very remote possibility. I see the AC more of like an olympic compition of down hill ski racing where risk of death is not a high probability, although they are pressing the limit of people and equipment.

4.You say a 40 foot fall (into water) would not be fatal. I would say it may not be fatal, but it might. Say you land flat or head first, then a good chance you will go unconsious and drown. Problem with teathers, now, because of height we would be looking at OSHA type fall protection: max 6 foot tether, body harness, shock absorbing lanyard- on a boat that just won't work.

Last edited by casey1999; 05-16-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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  #226  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

So at 2 fatalities in 130 years- you think it's less safe than which round the world race? 2 fatalities in 130 years makes it more likely than a fatality in the Olympics / run up to the Olympics? Hmmm. Do you read the things your typing?

What is coming across loud and clear is your personal disappointment with the perceived quality / safety of the experience. Perhaps due to a lack of available jobs since you turned down a crew position in the AC... No? That's not the case?


My question becomes- will you tune out? Or will you continue to complain they aren't havin their race the way you want them to have their race? While you watch in fascinated horror- praying for that next casualty that will prove you right?


I will be out sailing tomorrow- is there anything I should be doing to make the experience more to your liking? Or more comfortable for you?

Just because the ego demands the largest audience possible be able to view the proceedings- doesn't mean the proceedings are designed as easily palatable entertainment for the viewer. If a guy is walking around showing off his badass Rolex, his 22 year old maxim model trophy girlfriend and his deep pockets- he's not doing it for your entertainment, he's doing it for his own. Whether or not you are comfortable with the show
Suggesting he change it so its more to your taste sounds silly
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
So at 2 fatalities in 130 years- you think it's less safe than which round the world race? 2 fatalities in 130 years makes it more likely than a fatality in the Olympics / run up to the Olympics? Hmmm. Do you read the things your typing?

What is coming across loud and clear is your personal disappointment with the perceived quality / safety of the experience. Perhaps due to a lack of available jobs since you turned down a crew position in the AC... No? That's not the case?


My question becomes- will you tune out? Or will you continue to complain they aren't havin their race the way you want them to have their race? While you watch in fascinated horror- praying for that next casualty that will prove you right?


I will be out sailing tomorrow- is there anything I should be doing to make the experience more to your liking? Or more comfortable for you?

Just because the ego demands the largest audience possible be able to view the proceedings- doesn't mean the proceedings are designed as easily palatable entertainment for the viewer. If a guy is walking around showing off his badass Rolex, his 22 year old maxim model trophy girlfriend and his deep pockets- he's not doing it for your entertainment, he's doing it for his own. Whether or not you are comfortable with the show
Suggesting he change it so its more to your taste sounds silly
The other fatality you speak of in the AC training was a piece of broken gear that hit a sailor. It was not a capsize or break apart of an entire boat.

I have not been watching the AC, and don't plan to. I do read the news paper where the major accidents of the AC are printed. I do not plan to watch the upcoming AC races. The thing that turned me off wsa the type of boat they are using- one that cannot be controlled. Speed is nothing without control. As another poster posted, the AC's have a generator to power the computer and controls and winches. To me these AC's are then power boats. But if you like watching them, great, "Ain't that America".

That is the whole point of the AC, to get viewership. Doesn't matter if I don't watch it, but if a 100,000 don't watch it, then it matters.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
Just because the ego demands the largest audience possible be able to view the proceedings- doesn't mean the proceedings are designed as easily palatable entertainment for the viewer. If a guy is walking around showing off his badass Rolex, his 22 year old maxim model trophy girlfriend and his deep pockets- he's not doing it for your entertainment, he's doing it for his own. Whether or not you are comfortable with the show
Suggesting he change it so its more to your taste sounds silly
The AC is not just about some rich guys sailing their toys:
America's Cup planning endures rough waters - Business - Boston.com
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  #229  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

From:
America's Cup CEO Stephen Barclay on the Race's Competition and Tragedy - Businessweek

America's Cup CEO Stephen Barclay on the Race's Competition and Tragedy
May 16, 2012

America’s Cup is the Super Bowl of the sailing world. We have a preseason, the America’s Cup World Series, and playoffs, the Louis Vuitton Cup. If you measure the audience in terms of ratings and spectators, these events stand head and shoulders above anything else in sailing. My role as the chief executive is to conduct those events. The Cup is a medium-size business, employing over 100 people, with tens of millions of dollars a year in revenues and expenses. It’s a bit of a handful to manage.

In recent years, we’ve wanted to put the Cup on a sounder financial footing and make it accessible to people other than the very, very wealthy. To do that, we needed to bring the race in from 10 miles offshore to where people can see it. For the sake of television, the races had to start on time. You can’t have this huge buildup to a race and then have the television saying, “delayed due to lack of wind,” which is a huge problem in sailing.

The answer to these issues was to use a catamaran instead of the monohull boats we’ve traditionally used in the Cup. Catamarans are very fast, can sail in very light or strong winds, and get so close to the shore that fans can hear the sailors talking. But sailing can be dangerous. What we have is the best sailors in the world, and the best designers in the world, pushing the boundaries. Like in all sports, when you put the best out there—be it race cars or skiing, or the Knicks—the best want to win. In those situations, sometimes things go very wrong. We had one of those situations [on May 9].

When the Artemis Racing boat capsized in San Francisco Bay, I heard about the accident about 10 minutes after it happened. I was immediately shocked. We heard one of the sailors was missing—followed by elation that they’d found him. That elation rapidly drained away as I became aware he was undergoing CPR. Thirty minutes later, Andrew Simpson (above, center, with Olympic teammate Iain Percy) was pronounced dead. It was an enormous loss. The America’s Cup is like a family. Like any family, they bicker and quarrel at times. But everyone is just tragically feeling the loss.

I think it’s far too raw to be able to know the impact of this tragedy on the event and on the boats. I don’t want to prejudge anything. Andrew was a huge competitor. He had an Olympic gold medal. He had the brains to go with the brawn. He will help us come up with an answer. — As told to Aaron Kuriloff "
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Odd- it seems that is exactly what it's about. Especially when it references "wide eyed city supervisors being bamboozled by Ellison"

Whose getting everything they want- Larry- the boats, the venue, etc.



Please let me know what the AC is about? Fundraising for SF? Advertising for corporations? Bringing sailing into the mainstream? Providing viewers with wholesome family entertainment?

If any of those were the goals- there's plenty of money tied up in the event to pull of those goals. Those aren't the goals however- from the outset this was suppose to be the most balls out sailing race ever. And boy did they get that in spades.
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