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  #241  
Old 05-16-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
So if we did a TRC on deaths in Formula 1 car racing in the 1950's 60's and 70' and compared it with deaths in ordinary 4 wheeled passenger vehicles over the same period and compared the rates ???

The F1 fraternity would not have been able to make their sport safer because it would have been banned.

General Motors alone over the last 50 years have produced many hundreds of millions of cars so world production must be into several billion if all car makers are counted compared to several thousand F1 cars over the years. (Statistical fact: GM produced its 100 millionth small block V8 about 8 months ago)

In a motoring TV program in the UK (Top Gear), ordinary drivers took ordinary "super cars" (McClaren F1, Lamborghini) around a popular European race track and recorded higher speeds than F1 cars. So the safety measures taken in F1 to reduce deaths has really worked

I am not going to do hours of research to prove this point but I would be willing to bet on the fact that the TRC process outlined would see an immediate end to Formula 1.

On the day that the international community puts yacht racing under the control of OSH, yacht racing world-wide will end because then it will no longer be any fun and that is the primary reason why people do it.

As always, just my opinion(s).
Let me repeat again: I NEVER SUGGESTED THAT OSHA TAKE CONTROL OF RACING. I am only pointing out that their methodology of calculating risk and incidents provides useful statistical data upon which rational conclusions can be made, instead of some of the silly ideological rhetoric that I am hearing here.

As for your fears that the statistics would be so damning that they would bring about the death of F1, AC72 or any other extreme endeavor, I can only say:

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  #242  
Old 05-16-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

It was an interesting discussion the first couple times. And it did get challenging trying to present the argument in a fresh light- each a bit brighter than its forerunner. Striving to convey some crucial bit of information that might possibly tie the picture together for the daft bastard behind the other screen. Hoping with each tap on the iphone this misspelling- this one, the one autocorrec is dealing with rohht this second- this is the screentap that via the magical algoritms of ios6.something will be converted into the blinding- no- the healing light if truth...Everything I know about pearls and swine i learned on line. Ever have that feeling? You begin to have some self doubt about your ability to pen a coherent thought. All the while wondering- how can these guys be missin what an extraordinary bit of sailing this is and praising their efforts, rather than chastising them like wayward children. But then- does it matter? No- that is the crux o my argument after all.
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  #243  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
......To say that the job is made dangerous and a person is forced to do it because he has no other choices is simply naive. Everybody gets to choose where they do not want to work.
Naive? Really? I've played sports at the top of my game. College Division 1 linebacker. I may know the mentality better than you give me credit for. You play hurt, you play dangerously, you do what you're told or you don't get to play. They aren't conscious go-nogo decisions. If you want to play, you take whatever opportunity you get.

Quote:
So a world-class yacht crew refused to sail on a perceived death-trap and from then on is unemployable? Yeah right.
As has been so common for the opposing view, that is a complete exaggeration of my point. I never said they wouldn't get any other job, I said they were not going to be asked to crew on an AC boat again. For most, the opportunity doesn't come up multiple times, its one and done. Take it or leave it. I propose that the lure of having your one shot takes the decision away.

Quote:
These boys race these boats because they wouldn't want it any other way.
Ironically, we seem to agree, but can't do the rest of the math together. You are recognizing that the crews have an insatiable itch that must be scratched. Therefore, the owners can make those boats nearly as dangerous as they like and these crews will say yes, its what they do. Its not a choice. We're so close to being on the same page.


Let me take one more analogous shot at this (a night's sleep and cup of espresso, must have me delusional to want to keep going and think anyone is ever going to change their mind ). I never met a D-1 quarterback that wouldn't sell his mother to get a shot at the NFL. Same mentality as these AC crew members. It wouldn't matter what rules, what equipment, who or where they were playing. They would take it. Turn one opportunity down and the NFL isn't going to call again. They would still be employable elsewhere, as coaches, maybe to play in the CFL, or whatever.

However, if you asked the quarterbacks themselves if they would like tougher rules on roughing the QB, better equipment, rules that slowed guys like me down, they sure would. But, they don't get to choose. With or without a safer environment, they believe they have to take the job as is. It's not because that's the way they choose for it to be.
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  #244  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Minnie- Good points regarding football players but I don't think you can fully connect the dots in the argument; especially when you say the owners of the AC boats are free to develop these boats to be as dangerous as possible. Don't jump on me for paraphrasing but you can't possibly believe that anyone is trying to ignore the safety of these crafts. WTF are the millions of dollars for? It's not for the paint job. It's for the lightest and STRONGEST building materials that are currently feasible to use and the research to ensure, to the best of their abilities, that those materials are assembled properly and in a fashion that makes sense given the purpose of the overall design.

Using your analogy means that football franchise owners are knowingly retarding helmet, pad and cup design as well as the rules in order to line their pockets. I don't think that is the case.
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  #245  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

The football analogy only applies as I offered it. Only to the mentality of the players. You can't extend the analogy to a point that I didn't make.

You also can't stretch the accusation to say I was suggesting the AC owners/designers completely ignored safety.

My point has and continues to be that they have made these craft more dangerous, while other sports strive to make their next gen equipment less dangerous and more capable at the same time. Following that fact, I do not believe the crews have any choice but to accept that increased danger, even if they or their loved ones would prefer not to.
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  #246  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Therefore, the owners can make those boats nearly as dangerous as they like
How should we interpret?
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  #247  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Alden68 View Post
How should we interpret?
I'll clarify, so no interpretation is necessary. They have not completely ignored safety, the crews have spare air and pfds and practice jumping off 30 ft platforms, as some examples. They have made the boats as dangerous as they like, more dangerous than the last generation, in order to be more exciting and/or win.
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  #248  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

My guess is most of the people competing in the AC in this death defying boats are doing so because this job was already taken.

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  #249  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

jephotog- OMG- ????how do you train to do that for the first time?????

As regards AC-please realize if the boats break and people die as the owner you are out a whole lot of money and you lose the race. To say they are not concerned is to say regardless of whether they are unfeeling toward crew ( which I doubt) they are stupid ( which I highly doubt).
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  #250  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Others will have to forgive my continuation of this digression, if you have no interest in F1, simply skip over this response...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Way off topic,

Who cares who Ayrton Senna is and why should I care to know. Why would the American public watch FI...which they don't or care about it. It doesn't interest our pedestrian tastes obviously. They don't relate to the drivers for one or the cars for two.
Note To Self:

Never, EVER begin a discussion of F1 racing by acknowledging the name of the Fastest Man Who Ever Lived means nothing to you... (grin)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The NASCAR cars require a tremendous team effort during the race as the conditions change constantly with the heat of the track and constant adjustments are made to the camber, springs air pressures etc., while in F1 you got what you got when you start basically.
Apparently, you haven't looked at the steering wheel of an F1 recently... The capability of the drivers to make changes to the cars during the race boggles the mind - hell, at Monaco next week, they might be making brake bias adjustments for individual CORNERS during the course of a single lap... Not to mention, the telemetry between the pit and the car on the track, while allows the teams to initiate changes to such computerized functions as engine mapping, and the monitoring of tire pressures, and so on... It's laughable to assert the level of technological complexity of NASCAR is even in the same solar system as F1, much less the same planet...



01. BOOST » F1 cars have an electric-hybrid system known as KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) that regenerates braking energy, then boosts acceleration—at the push of a button—via an 80-hp electric motor. Another feature that increases speed is the movable rear wing that flattens to reduce drag. The wing is controlled by a foot pedal.

02. LAP TIME

03. HARVEST » Regulates the amount of energy "harvested" during braking. The regen system can alter the feel of the brakes, and because these guys drive with exacting precision, they're picky about tactile feedback. This knob lets them customize.

04. DOWNSHIFT PADDLE

05. MIX » Adjusts the engine's air—fuel mixture to balance power and fuel economy. F1 cars don't refuel during a race, but economy is still vital—fuel adds weight.

06. BITE POINT » The race start is critical because the cars begin from a stop and the initial sprint is a prime overtaking opportunity. The bite point adjusts how the clutch engages as the drivers release the paddle, so they can execute a perfect launch.

07. BPF » During practice starts, the driver uses the "bite point find" to record the clutch behavior. Engineers use the data to instruct the driver where to set the bite point dial.

08. CLUTCH PADDLE

09. BBAL » Displays the front—rear brake balance, a critical adjustment that drivers make to fine-tune the braking performance. Most passes are done in the braking zones.

10. REVERSE GEAR

11. SHIFT LIGHTS

12. LIMITER » Restricts the car's speed to the pit-lane limit, 62 mph.

13. ENGINE PARAMETERS

14. UPSHIFT PADDLE

15. TORQUE » The 2.4-liter V8 revs to 18,000 rpm and delivers north of 700 hp. That's a handful in a 1400-pound car, so the drivers use this knob to adjust the engine's torque curve, depending on track conditions.

16. TYRE » Teams use roughly half a dozen different tires that vary in construction and diameter. This dial tells the computer which tires are fitted so it can calculate wheel speed.

17. CLUTCH PADDLE

18. DIFFERENTIAL » Thanks to electronic controls, the characteristics of the rear differential can be tailored for corner entry, midpoint and exit—each with 12 settings. Frankly, we're amazed that the drivers can detect such minute rear-end differences during cornering events that last for maybe a few seconds. But that's why they're paid millions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Getting Americans to go to F1 races is like asking Americans to give up football for soccer. We like our NASCAR.
Yes, we Americans are primarily interested in the forms of sport we excel at... No other nation is so fond of proclaiming our football, basketball, and baseball teams "WORLD CHAMPIONS" in professional sports leagues such as the NFL, NBA, and MLB that are not contested beyond our own borders. We are the ultimate "Homers", if a global sport like World Cup Skiing doesn't have an American competitor like Lindsey Vonn at the top at a particular time, it has little interest for most of America... Hence, the lack of general interest in F1, we've only produced 2 World Drivers Championships since 1950, while countries such as Austria and Finland have produced twice as many... This sort of chauvinism that exists in our cultural view of worldwide sport goes a long way towards explaining the widespread lack of interest in an event such as the Americas's Cup, of course...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You like your F1/ We are uncivilized rednecks beer drinkers and chips and salsa and you are sophisticated wine drinkers and brie eaters. We like the intricate strategy of football at every position vs. soccer which is very straightforward and much less cerebral...

...Many of them come from dirt tracks etc. Lots of the drivers are 35-45. F1 Boys are rich brats who while they may ridicule the NASCAR guys for riding in a circle wont dare try and go out and "hang" with them. First time one of them would get bump drafted they'd crap in their pants. F1 drivers drive with almost no contact. NASCAR..its the norm in close quarter racing
OK, we get it... You've seen TALLADEGA NIGHTS - The Ballad of Ricky Bobby...

(grin, bigtime)


Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-17-2013 at 09:21 AM.
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