Another America’s Cup entry destroyed - Page 26 - SailNet Community

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  #251  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by outbound View Post
jephotog- OMG- ????how do you train to do that for the first time?????
I think you start off in Sabot's at a young age.
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  #252  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Naive? Really? I've played sports at the top of my game. College Division 1 linebacker. I may know the mentality better than you give me credit for. You play hurt, you play dangerously, you do what you're told or you don't get to play. They aren't conscious go-nogo decisions. If you want to play, you take whatever opportunity you get.
.....
I don't think the analogy is valid. The sailors on the AC cup are not University sailors, they are the best, really at the top. If you were one of the best quarter backs on the country you could say no to any trainer. There would be 10 teams wanting to buy you anyway. The guys on the AC are that good.

Regards

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  #253  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

The American Cup Races should go back to the "J" boats or even the schooner that the race is named after.

Remember this is food for thoughts. But think about it.
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  #254  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
The football analogy only applies as I offered it. Only to the mentality of the players. You can't extend the analogy to a point that I didn't make.

You also can't stretch the accusation to say I was suggesting the AC owners/designers completely ignored safety.

My point has and continues to be that they have made these craft more dangerous, while other sports strive to make their next gen equipment less dangerous and more capable at the same time. Following that fact, I do not believe the crews have any choice but to accept that increased danger, even if they or their loved ones would prefer not to.


So- someone else said it- what I was getting at bug couldn't quite convey - boats that fall apart and kill people don't win. None of these teams want to lose, therefore they designed boats to be as safe as possible. Anyway- I do think its worth noting that every generation of equipment is designed to be an improvement over the previous iterations perceived shortcomings. That means many things- but the part to focus on is that performance is why drives innovation and development in the field- not safety. So If an improvement in performance can be complimented by improved safety- it is, if that can't be accomplished- the modifications are made to improve the performance- relying on previous safety measures to remain adequate until such time as performance upgrades or whatever are called for.
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  #255  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Boasun View Post
The American Cup Races should go back to the "J" boats or even the schooner that the race is named after.

Remember this is food for thoughts. But think about it.
He He, that boat is so easy, I mean the America schooner, that I was the captain of a replica for half an hour while doing my unlimited Captain's examination. I put it sailing downwind butterfly style with opposed sails. Got the sailors scared because they didn't know if I knew what I was doing

I wish I could sail the AC72 as easily as the America replica but I am afraid that is just for top sailors. The AC cup should not only be raced in the fastest boats but also in boats that demand the best sailors to be sailed, otherwise what would be the point?: The Ac would only be another sailboat race and not the fastest sailboat race and that's the spirit of it.

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  #256  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
The football analogy only applies as I offered it. Only to the mentality of the players. You can't extend the analogy to a point that I didn't make.

You also can't stretch the accusation to say I was suggesting the AC owners/designers completely ignored safety.

My point has and continues to be that they have made these craft more dangerous, while other sports strive to make their next gen equipment less dangerous and more capable at the same time. Following that fact, I do not believe the crews have any choice but to accept that increased danger, even if they or their loved ones would prefer not to.
Really??? They are free to quit at any time and get a real job.
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  #257  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Really??? They are free to quit at any time and get a real job.
I fell some animosity against sail racing Do you mean a professional sail racer is not a real job?

Regards

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  #258  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

A thing to consider is that we want the cup to go the team with the best designed boat crewed by the best sailors, not to the team most willing to endanger the lives of their crew.

Racers will accept a much higher level of risk that the rest of us are comfortable with. That is part of what makes them racers.


A few years ago there was a CART race scheduled for the Texas Speedway, a course designed for slower NASCAR races. The highly banked corners allowed the CART cars to run full out all the way around the track, meaning they were pulling over 5 Gs for a lot of the course.

Every one of the drivers did a series of test laps. So every one of the drivers knew that they were nearing blackout, losing all peripheral vision and becoming disoriented. And they were all willing to race like that.

It was only when a doctor noticed that one of the drivers wasn't able to walk in a straight line for quite a while after his test laps that they started interviewing other drivers and learned of the danger.

The governing body decided this was a level of risk they could not take, and canceled the race just hours before race time. It cost them tens of millions.

The racers were willing to take the risk, they would have gladly driven into that bloodbath. And the winner wouldn't have been the best driver, the winner would have been the one lucky enough to not black out at the wrong time or to get hit by someone else who blacked out at the wrong time.

It wouldn't have been a contest of skill, it would have been televised Russian Roulette.


If it is the case that the Artemis boat broke up before it crashed, and if it is the case that this structural weakness is endemic to these boats, then we're basically watching a dice game, not a game of skill. You roll snake eyes and your boat cracks up. Next roller step up to the table, please.
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  #259  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Minnesail you're right on that is what racing is all about, push it to the end of the ability. If it is running, driving, or sailing, biking, F-1, WCR, and so on. Push man and machine to the limit in order to win.
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  #260  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Good example. So, why can't AC do something to limit its risk?
I think this is the crux of the debate. The definition of risk in racing is completely different than the definition in virtually any other endeavor.

Racing of this kind is really ONLY ABOUT MANAGING EXTREMELY HIGH RISK. And everyone involved knows that.

This level of risk has been inherent in the RTW ocean races for a long time. But it's completely new to the historically "gentlemanly" AC. AND it's completely counter to virtually every norm in the broader understanding of "prudent seamanship". I think this is the real disconnect.

IT'S LITERALLY ABOUT PUSHING MAN AND MACHINE TO THE POINT OF FAILURE. Period.

So, if we accept the fact that EXTREMELY HIGH RISK is inherent in the endeavor, it becomes a very different conversation.

The AC has finally become all about real racing. That's a good thing in my book.
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