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  #261  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
.. Why would the American public watch FI...which they don't or care about it. They drive cars which look nothing like what the general public drives.. ...

As far as technical superiority, its apples and oranges. .. You like your F1/ We are uncivilized rednecks beer drinkers and chips and salsa and you are sophisticated wine drinkers and brie eaters.........
Dave I am not trying to change American tastes and I believe the reason they will not like AC is because AC has a lot of common with F1 and nothing to do with Nascar: The faster sailboats, the faster cars, the most technological advanced sailboats, the most technological cars, the most expensive race sailboats, the most expensive race cars, the most world wide top race sailboat series, the most world wide top race cars series, the biggest budget race sailboat series, the biggest budget race cars series....and has you say, AC72, like the F1 "they drive cars (or sailboats) which look nothing like what the general public drives"

Regarding the technological differences in a car they can be measured by the lateral forces the car can sustain while breaking on curving (grip). A Nascar racing car can generate 2G forces, a F1 more than the double, 5G. Technology can also be measured in the engines, regarding the horsepower produced by a given size of engine. Th F1 and the Nascar have about the same power, 750hp, both are naturally aspirated but the F1 engine is more than 2 times smaller than the Nascar engine (2400cc to 5780cc) and that contributes to very different weights on the cars, the F1 weights almost 1/3 than a Nascar car and that makes it much faster.

A good way to measure technological sophistication is money invested in each car: A Nascar car costs $1.5 Million, a F1 $7.0 million or the team bubget: The 20 top time budget, Nascar- 6.5 million, F1 - 325.0 million.

You can get a good idea of the difference in technological sophistication just regarding both steering wheels:





Well, That one is a 4 year hold one, today they are more sophisticated but I guess you got the general picture.

Like the F1, the AC72 races are going to be pretty boring, if we look to the competition only. The chances are that a boat will be far more faster than another and it will win easily but like the F1 we don't like them just for the competition (that is much bigger on Nascar) but by the human and technological achievement and that is also what AC72 is about.

and Dave...the Brie is alright but it is a pretty cheap cheese, we like more sophisticated ones like Roquefort, Parmigiano Reggiano or Serra da Estrela

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-17-2013 at 04:38 PM.
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  #262  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

IMHP the most compelling cup was the one we lost to the wing keel and the huge interest in its unveiling after the event

You certainly had a HUGE field trying to get into the game at that point in time and for a good while after VS the 3-1/2 we have right now

Nascar is how it is on propose as they already have issues with the car cost going beyond what sponsors can support

During testing they do full on car telemetry and the problem is still the cost of turning that into useful information
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  #263  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
A thing to consider is that we want the cup to go the team with the best designed boat crewed by the best sailors, not to the team most willing to endanger the lives of their crew.

Racers will accept a much higher level of risk that the rest of us are comfortable with. That is part of what makes them racers.


A few years ago there was a CART race scheduled for the Texas Speedway, a course designed for slower NASCAR races. The highly banked corners allowed the CART cars to run full out all the way around the track, meaning they were pulling over 5 Gs for a lot of the course.

Every one of the drivers did a series of test laps. So every one of the drivers knew that they were nearing blackout, losing all peripheral vision and becoming disoriented. And they were all willing to race like that.

It was only when a doctor noticed that one of the drivers wasn't able to walk in a straight line for quite a while after his test laps that they started interviewing other drivers and learned of the danger.

The governing body decided this was a level of risk they could not take, and canceled the race just hours before race time. It cost them tens of millions.

The racers were willing to take the risk, they would have gladly driven into that bloodbath. And the winner wouldn't have been the best driver, the winner would have been the one lucky enough to not black out at the wrong time or to get hit by someone else who blacked out at the wrong time.

It wouldn't have been a contest of skill, it would have been televised Russian Roulette.


If it is the case that the Artemis boat broke up before it crashed, and if it is the case that this structural weakness is endemic to these boats, then we're basically watching a dice game, not a game of skill. You roll snake eyes and your boat cracks up. Next roller step up to the table, please.
It can not be endemic to "these boats" because each of the boats is designed and built separately. They all will have different strengths and weaknesses depending on the design/build teams input.
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  #264  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I think this is the crux of the debate. The definition of risk in racing is completely different than the definition in virtually any other endeavor.

Racing of this kind is really ONLY ABOUT MANAGING EXTREMELY HIGH RISK. And everyone involved knows that.

This level of risk has been inherent in the RTW ocean races for a long time. But it's completely new to the historically "gentlemanly" AC. AND it's completely counter to virtually every norm in the broader understanding of "prudent seamanship". I think this is the real disconnect.

IT'S LITERALLY ABOUT PUSHING MAN AND MACHINE TO THE POINT OF FAILURE. Period.

So, if we accept the fact that EXTREMELY HIGH RISK is inherent in the endeavor, it becomes a very different conversation.

The AC has finally become all about real racing. That's a good thing in my book.
I basically agree with you, but keep in mind they used to sail wooden racing boats from Europe to the US to race in the AC on their own bottoms, without any electronic aids...
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  #265  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

serra great heese, we eat parmeseano arergiano too as well as the blue cheese aged by the monks in the caves. There are some pretty outstanding bries in France. Actually.

Your point about F1 is well taken.

Dave








QUOTE=PCP;1031848]Dave I am not trying to change American tastes and I believe the reason they will not like AC is because AC has a lot of common with F1 and nothing to do with Nascar: The faster sailboats, the faster cars, the most technological advanced sailboats, the most technological cars, the most expensive race sailboats, the most expensive race cars, the most world wide top race sailboat series, the most world wide top race cars series, the biggest budget race sailboat series, the biggest budget race cars series....and has you say, AC72, like the F1 "they drive cars (or sailboats) which look nothing like what the general public drives"

Regarding the technological differences in a car they can be measured by the lateral forces the car can sustain while breaking on curving (grip). A Nascar racing car can generate 2G forces, a F1 more than the double, 5G. Technology can also be measured in the engines, regarding the horsepower produced by a given size of engine. Th F1 and the Nascar have about the same power, 750hp, both are naturally aspirated but the F1 engine is more than 2 times smaller than the Nascar engine (2400cc to 5780cc) and that contributes to very different weights on the cars, the F1 weights almost 1/3 than a Nascar car and that makes it much faster.

A good way to measure technological sophistication is money invested in each car: A Nascar car costs $1.5 Million, a F1 $7.0 million or the team bubget: The 20 top time budget, Nascar- 6.5 million, F1 - 325.0 million.

You can get a good idea of the difference in technological sophistication just regarding both steering wheels:





Well, That one is a 4 year hold one, today they are more sophisticated but I guess you got the general picture.

Like the F1, the AC72 races are going to be pretty boring, if we look to the competition only. The chances are that a boat will be far more faster than another and it will win easily but like the F1 we don't like them just for the competition (that is much bigger on Nascar) but by the human and technological achievement and that is also what AC72 is about.

and Dave...the Brie is alright but it is a pretty cheap cheese, we like more sophisticated ones like Roquefort, Parmigiano Reggiano or Serra da Estrela

Regards

Paulo[/QUOTE]
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  #266  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
A thing to consider is that we want the cup to go the team with the best designed boat crewed by the best sailors, not to the team most willing to endanger the lives of their crew.
....
The best team (boat/crew) will be the one that arrive first. To arrive first they have to manage to not capsize or break the boat. If they endanger the lives of the crew they will break, capsize or pitchpole and will not win the race.

Even on Ocean races today top boats are so powerful that the crew has to manage the speed and conditions to where the boat can handle safely. The times where big sailingboats could be sailed at full blast without fear of breaking is gone. Stress management is needed and it is a part of racing.

Regards

Paulo
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  #267  
Old 05-17-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
serra great heese, we eat parmeseano arergiano too as well as the blue cheese aged by the monks in the caves. There are some pretty outstanding bries in France. Actually.
I am surprised you know the cheese da serra. I thought we eat them all

I have been in the French caves and eat the cheese there. I found out they keep the best and export the other. If you go to France don't miss that. They do a salad with nuts and Roquefort that is something.

Back on topic:

After the tragic dead of the British sailor the German sailing federation had officially retired their team of kids from the Youth America's Cup.

Surprise:

The kids say that with or without official support they are going to race!!!!


"They want their dream and don't want to give up: After the official withdrawal of their team from the Youth America's Cup, the young German sailing team with skipper Philipp Buhl Sonthofen and Erik Heil from Berlin wants to achieve participation even without support.. ... ... "We want to try it ourselves," said the 23-year-old Laser European Champions Buhl, "we got a chance to participate in the America's Cup, and that may be a chance in a lifetime. We want to fight for it. We've come this far and want to go till the finish. We believe that sailing on the smaller catamarans is far less risky than the AC-72 boats. "

http://www.yacht.de/sport/news/im-al...rs/a80195.html

Regards

Paulo
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  #268  
Old 05-18-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by T34C View Post
Really??? They are free to quit at any time and get a real job.
I would not suggest that. I waited till I was almost 40 for my first real job. I now miss my fake life.
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  #269  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The kids say that with or without official support they are going to race!!!!


"They want their dream and don't want to give up: After the official withdrawal of their team from the Youth America's Cup, the young German sailing team with skipper Philipp Buhl Sonthofen and Erik Heil from Berlin wants to achieve participation even without support.. ... ... "We want to try it ourselves," said the 23-year-old Laser European Champions Buhl, "we got a chance to participate in the America's Cup, and that may be a chance in a lifetime. We want to fight for it. We've come this far and want to go till the finish. We believe that sailing on the smaller catamarans is far less risky than the AC-72 boats. "

http://www.yacht.de/sport/news/im-al...rs/a80195.html

Regards

Paulo
I think the last line about the safety of the smaller boats is for the sake of the crew's mothers. My guess is the sailing youth would be making up stories of safety, holding car washes and bake sales if that is what it took to race the AC105s no matter what the danger.

The question is how many sailors in the current AC race would give up the opportunity to participate for a different sailing job that was safe, and paid the same as the AC? My guess is very few.
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  #270  
Old 05-18-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by jephotog View Post
I would not suggest that. I waited till I was almost 40 for my first real job. I now miss my fake life.
It didn't say I recommended it, just that it was an option.
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