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  #291  
Old 05-23-2013
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
No they have not. These are only recommendations not an alteration to protocol.

"These recommendations are made by the Regatta Director after the Review
Committee interviewed team personnel from all Competitors, and will be refined as the further work identified above is completed.

(The majority of the Regatta Director recommendations represent a consensus
of the Competitors.
( These recommendations do not alter the responsibilities assumed and allocated by the provisions of the Protocol or any other rules or document referred to in the Protocol.
( Each Competitor is responsible for the method of implementing the
recommendations"


http://www.cupinfo.com/downloads/ac3...aft-052213.pdf

This promises to be hot with only one month to the races. How can recommendations be mandatory or alter protocol?

They say that the the majority of the Regatta Director recommendations represent a consensus of the Competitors. It is needed only one that does not agree with something out of the protocol, including wind limits for that particular recommendation to be void and the protocol to have precedence.

This is going to be interesting to follow

Anyway I think the wind speed alterations is a mistake. They were there from the beginning, the teams had to draw boats that could handle the conditions.

If they can't, well, they have just to modify the boats or the wings.

Regards

Paulo
We have the US Coast Guard:

From:
Committee recommends safety measures for America's Cup

The new recommendations are not binding until the Coast Guard gives its stamp of approval. Only it has the authority to issue a marine permit for the series of races to take place this summer on San Francisco Bay.

Last edited by casey1999; 05-23-2013 at 01:47 PM.
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  #292  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
We have the US Coast Guard:

From:
Committee recommends safety measures for America's Cup

The new recommendations are not binding until the Coast Guard gives its stamp of approval. Only it has the authority to issue a marine permit for the series of races to take place this summer on San Francisco Bay.
You seem not to understand. The protocol has precedence over anything. The protocol are the rules for this AC edition and was published on September 2010 and cannot be changed in the middle unless all agree with that.

As I said they can modify the boats to be safer. NZ guys says that theirs was designed for the protocol conditions and it is safe with those conditions.

It would be a new one, I mean a coast guard to interfere and eventually favor some concurrent over others. The boats have to be safe and that's all the coast guard can demand. If a boat was sailed and tested for months without a single accident with conditions similar to the one the protocol how can the Coast guard say it is unsafe?

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-23-2013 at 02:01 PM.
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  #293  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You seem not to understand. The protocol has precedence over anything. The protocol are the rules for this AC edition and was published on September 2010 and cannot be changed in the middle unless all agree with that.

As I said they can modify the boats to be safer. NZ guys says that theirs was designed for the protocol conditions and it is safe with those conditions.

It would be a new one, I mean a coast guard to interfere and eventually favor some concurrent over others. The boats have to be safe and that's all the coast guard can demand. If a boat was sailed and tested for months without a single accident with conditions similar to the one the protocol how can the Coast guard say it is unsafe?

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
You do not understand a lot of things.
The Coast Guard does not care about the NZ boat. If all parties do not agree to the what the CG wants, they will not issue a permit to race in the SF Bay. They cup boats might be able to go outside the 12 mile limit and race, but the US CG may still have jurisdiction to stop even that race as they are responsible for any needed rescue.


From:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=10885681

"Producing and implementing the safety plan is within the scope of the America's Cup, as the sponsoring organization for this summer's racing," said Stephen Barclay, the CEO of the America's Cup.

"This America's Cup safety plan is a necessary component of the permit application submitted to the Coast Guard for their consideration."

Last edited by casey1999; 05-23-2013 at 02:15 PM.
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  #294  
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
and that is what I was talking about:

"But the issue of reducing the wind limits for the regatta is likely to prove the most divisive for the teams.

The regatta director's recommendations advise the wind limit be reduced to 20kts in July, 21kts in August, and 23kts in September, with additional wind limit adjustments for tide and sea state.

Team New Zealand managing director Grant Dalton told the Herald at the weekend his team made trade-offs with the design of their boat to ensure it was robust enough to cope with the wind range originally set down in the protocol, and extensive testing had shown their boat was reliable in heavy conditions...

"We have confidence in our boat - design, engineering and construction -and the sailing and support crews. We have invested a lot of time and money on safety."


."


Yachting: Safety increases recommended for America's Cup - Sport - NZ Herald News
One mans' opinion,

Note they also said this:
"Team New Zealand released a statement this afternoon to announce the team supports the review committee's recommendations in principle.
"They are prudent and reasonable," said Dalton."
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
One mans' opinion,

Note they also said this:
"Team New Zealand released a statement this afternoon to announce the team supports the review committee's recommendations in principle.
"They are prudent and reasonable," said Dalton."
It is not one man, it is the director of NZ team and he speaks for them.

"in principle" says it all, not with all recommendations itself but with the principle and that is safety recommendations.

You seem to forget that it is enough one team not to agree for the Protocol to be maintained on that particular point.

What do you have against the boats being modified (if needed) to comply safely with the existent protocol in what regards wind speed?

Do you think it is reasonable to have again (like on the monohulls) sailing boats at the top level champiomship that cannot sail with winds all other racing classes would not find a problem (I mean big boats)?

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It is not one man, it is the director of NZ team and he speaks for them.

"in principle" says it all, not with all recommendations itself but with the principle and that is safety recommendations.

You seem to forget that it is enough one team not to agree for the Protocol to be maintained on that particular point.

What do you have against the boats being modified (if needed) to comply safely with the existent protocol in what regards wind speed?

Do you think it is reasonable to have again (like on the monohulls) sailing boats at the top level champiomship that cannot sail with winds all other racing classes would not find a problem (I mean big boats)?

Regards

Paulo
I don't think any of the current AC 72's can be raced safely in 33 knots of wind and with the contributing sea state on top of the wind speed as the SF Bay has. The NZ team is just posturing for the up coming court hearings concerning of this. In the AC, the lawyers are the major beneficiary.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Say the AC wants to race in 30 knots wind and US CG says we will not issue a permit to conduct the race, what happens then? Is AC cancelled? Seems CG is in charge here.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
I don't think any of the current AC 72's can be raced safely in 33 knots of wind and with the contributing sea state on top of the wind speed as the SF Bay has. The NZ team is just posturing for the up coming court hearings concerning of this. In the AC, the lawyers are the major beneficiary.
As someone had explained the conditions on the S Francisco bay have many times winds over 20K. If the boat is not designed to sail with 30k winds cannot hope to win the cup and all want that. The rules allow them to have smaller wings if they think that the ones they have cannot be safely used with 30k. It is for them to decide or do you think that or should the coast guard telling them what is safe or not when they do not even do that with cruising boats?

Talking about nanny state:

Quote:
Originally Posted by casey1999 View Post
Say the AC wants to race in 30 knots wind and US CG says we will not issue a permit to conduct the race, what happens then? Is AC cancelled? Seems CG is in charge here.
If that happened it would be a major scandal. It is for the defender to assure the conditions for the race to be held according to the protocol. If that is not possible on the S, Francisco bay it would have to be elsewhere, probably in Italy, the house of the Challenger, in Rome. That is a thing for the lawyers to decide but one thing is for sure: The protocol takes precedence and can only be altered if all agree.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-23-2013 at 03:20 PM.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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As I have explained the conditions on the S Francisco bay have many times winds over 20K. If the boat is not designed to sail with 30k winds cannot hope to win the cup and all want that. The rules allow them to have smaller wings if they think that the ones they have cannot be safely used with 30k. It is for them to decide or do you think that or should the coast guard telling them what is safe or not when they do not even do that with cruising boats?

Talking about nanny state:



If that happened it would be a major scandal. It is for the defender to assure the conditions for the race to be held according to the protocol. If that is not possible on the S, Francisco bay it would have to be elsewhere, probably in Italy, the house of the Challenger, in Rome. That is a thing for the lawyers to decide but one thing is for sure: The protocol takes precedence and can only be altered if all agree.

Regards

Paulo
Here in the US the CG can declare our voyage manefestly unsafe if our boat is not safe for the conditions. Yes the CG can stop us from sailing, and it can stop the AC if it desires. Our boats however do not require a CG inspection to sail. The CG may stop us any time and perform an inspection. If we do not have the required safety equipment, our boat will be stopped and fined, and may be ordered to return to harbor.

Does your local/country perform required inspections on your boats on a regular basis?

I do not make the rules, the US CG does. I don't have to like or dislike, but if I want to sail in US waters, I need to follow.
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Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

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As I have explained the conditions on the S Francisco bay have many times winds over 20K.



Regards

Paulo
Yes, I've sailed in SF bay, I know the conditions.
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