Another America’s Cup entry destroyed - Page 35 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree121Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #341  
Old 05-24-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

It seems that the most probable is that you are going to have wind limits 10K lower than the ones of the protocol, at least this statement from the NZ team seems to indicate so:

Emirates Team New Zealand welcomes the finding of the committee reviewing the fatal incident involving the Artemis Racing AC72. The committee’s recommendations were released today in San Francisco.

Managing director Grant Dalton said the team supports the review committee’s recommendations in principle. “They are prudent and reasonable,” he said.

“The committee has done some remarkable work in only six days. The details still have to be worked on but we see nothing that will adversely affect the event.

“We have confidence in our boat – design, engineering and construction – and the sailing and support crews. We have invested a lot of time and money on safety.”


News Story

unless max wind speed is a detail and this is only a strategical move kind of: We agree with everything, there is just a little detail about the max wind speed....
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #342  
Old 05-25-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

An interesting article on Yacht de (translated):

The America's Cup Management has published two weeks after the accidental death of Andrew Simpson, as a result of a crash of Artemis Racing, is a long list of control recommendations, which are now to be evaluated by the ones that can do so, the organizing Golden Gate Yacht Club and the challengers.

In essence, there are calls for a neutral investigation of all AC72 boats and their wing sails, a significant reduction of the wind limits at ten knots (Max: 23 knots) and an extension of the security provisions for the equipment on board the catamaran and on board escort boats.

Especially the demand for the limited wind limit it is likely to have a dramatic effect,on case that should actually be used. The lower limit above which no race can be started, would changed a few weeks before the start of the Louis Vuitton Cup, will change the format drastically, one that the challengers have prepared in different ways. It could punish individual teams that had in the construction of their boats considered the possibility of strong winds and the corresponding trade-offs were part of the design - especially in what regards the Zealander Grant Dalton team. ...

"The proposal covers the dilemma in which the organizers are stuck," says the two-time America's Cup participant Tim Kröger, "they have to react after the deadly accident, but changing halfway rules of the game it is from a sporting perspective questionable decision, unfortunately showing how wrong all this is"...

Another statement of Iain Murray reveals how the teams will still remain focused in their new high-risk sports, against all recommendations and rule changes at: "None of the recommendations can ever eliminate the risk of injury or death, it is a risky by nature activity. and participants must accept full responsibility for all risks involved. "

It is not yet clear whether the team Artemis Racing and Luna Rossa will choose to participate. Both teams have been granted a further reflection. Team New Zealand is considering not only exiting as it is struggling with the new rules. It seems impossible to find a compromise that is fair regarding the desires and needs of all participants.


America's Cup: Neues Spiel, neues Glück? - Sport*|*YACHT.DE


Troubled waters on the AC, no doubt.

Meanwhile the German kids from the Youth team has already granted permission to participate individually (not supported by Germany). Now they have to found the needed 100 000 euros.

and more:

"You may have seen catamarans fly a hull, but during practice, Emirates Team New Zealand can get both hulls out of the water. For just a moment Friday, in a little over 12-knot breeze, the boat was riding on its hydrofoil.

At higher wind speeds, the New Zealand boat can foil downwind giving it a tremendous speed advantage. But on Friday, America's Cup organizers said that to make the racing safer, they're considering moving up the racing time from 1 p.m. to noon, when the winds are not as strong.
"I guess one of the tragedys for us, a little bit, in terms of the wind speed change, is that we've actually simulated those higher wind speeds in our training because that's what we were coming to," said New Zealand Teams Managing Director Grant Dalton. "So, we're having to give up quite a lot to go to a lower wind speed in terms of our training regime and what we've learned and our boat to a certain extent as well."


http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...sco&id=9115543


"The four syndicates are now weighing up the 37 safety recommendations made by the America's Cup review committee that were released yesterday."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-s...fruitful-trial

As the review committee does not have the mandate to make changes to the Protocol which governs the race, most of the recommendations will need mutual agreement from the teams before they can be implemented and Barker expects there will be some interesting discussions at the competitor meetings over the coming week.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=10886009
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-25-2013 at 10:42 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #343  
Old 05-25-2013
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

At least Oracle has until September to make the necessary changes/improvements to their boat IF the 23kt rule goes in effect. I feel the most sorry for ETNZ because they are the favorite among the challengers and have trained for the 25-30kt winds that would be expected.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #344  
Old 05-27-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

An interesting article:

"Non-Negotiable?
According to Ehman all the Recommendations are part of a safety plan for the event, and as such are non-negotiable by the teams, since safety will not be compromised.

Team insiders spoken to by Sail-World don’t quite see it that way, splitting the Recommendations into three areas – those that involve modification to the AC72 Class Rule which governs the measurement and design of the 72ft wingsailed catamaran that will be sailed for the first time in the 34th America’s Cup. Changes to that AC72 rule can only be done with the consent of all the teams – a simple majority is not enough.

A second group of recommendations are the changes to the Protocol, which governs the rules under which the racing for the America’s Cup and Louis Vuitton Cup’s will be conducted. Changes to the Protocol can be made by the Regatta Director after a majority vote by the Teams.

The third group is Safety Rules, which can be set arbitrarily by the Regatta Director, and to which his officials and the teams, where they are affected, must comply.

Under Ehman’s logic all the 37 Recommendations come under the Safety category, and are not subject to any negotiation or amendment. 'As for whether there will be votes on Class Rule amendments and Protocol Amendments - No. These Recommendations will become Rules.'

'These are Safety Recommendations by the Regatta Director, and they will become part of the regatta permit and therefore Rules.' He adds that until that formal process is concluded by the Coast Guard, the recommendations are just that, and are for the guidance of teams during the training period now under way.

'The Coast Guard needs to ensure that the field of play is safe, that it is safe for the competitors, and also that the event is conducted safely for spectators as well. It is concerned with the overall safe conduct of the event.'

Ehman's view aside, the bulk of the recommendations actually do fall under the Safety category and many don’t directly affect the teams at all, such as whether mark boats are used, as currently, or inflatable marks as recommended for race management - evidence that the Review Committee has looked beyond just the Artemis and Oracle incidents.

Ehman says most of the cost of the Recommendations will fall on the Organisers. These include having to devise ways of adopting LiveLine, the GPS based tracking system used for umpiring and television to run off the power available within an inflatable mark for GPS positioning. 'There are requirements of the Organising Committee, that are onerous, but at the end of the day it is safety first,' he adds.

Wind limit reduction no surprise
The process to be followed by the Coast Guard is to either approve or reject America's Cup Regatta Management's application (through the Golden Gate Yacht Club). 'They don't dictate,' explains Ehman.

Essentially what is being lodged is a Safety Plan, and it is against that laudable backdrop that some of the Recommendations are curious.

The reduction in wind limits will also go through, despite being a 10knot reduction over the ridiculously high figure previously set of 33kts. 'We wondered how it would take them to wake up to that one,' Emirates Team NZ's Grant Dalton remarked in a television news interview.

The new wind limit of 20kts for the Louis Vuitton Cup Round Robins creeping to 23 kts for the America’s Cup Match will still need a Protocol change. The new limit is a couple of knots below the international standard used in the Olympics and World Championships. Although it applies before the start only, the racing can still be cancelled after the race has started for safety issues.
....

Contrary to other reports the lower wind limit for the regatta has not changed – and cannot except by a majority vote of the teams. Of some concern is the ability to have variable start times, possibly based on forecasts but also with the perspective that one team might try an influence the start time to get 'their' conditions.

Ehman points out that if the teams do have concerns in that respect, all they have to do is to get together as sort out a new and stronger lower wind limit. 'It is not a safety issue,' he adds."

Sail-World.com : America's Cup: Review Recommendations not expected to be an easy meal

Funny, I thought the protocol could only be changed if all agree. I will have to look better at it.

.....
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-27-2013 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #345  
Old 05-27-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Yes, they are right:

14. PROTOCOL AMENDMENTS
14.1. GGYC and the Challenger of Record may amend this Protocol with the approval of a majority of the Competitor Forum.


It remains to be known who will have a right to vote since the ones that give up will not have that right. If Luna Rossa and Artemis will go out of the race it will remain on the NZ hands the right to accept any modification.

Anyway, it is clear to me that the boats are incredible but the development and costs are too high to make this one the right format.

I believe the major error was to make two different boats, one for the series, other for the America's cup. That inflated costs. It would have been more interesting in what regards the number of teams to have all, series and AC, raced on the same boat )maybe a 60ft boat) like it used to happen with the mono-hulls.

That way the boats could have a racing future outside the AC cup and be used on other series or types of races, like the previous boats. I can't see what future these AC 72 will have outside the Cup. They are just not in enough number and are too expensive to maintain or repair.

...
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #346  
Old 05-27-2013
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

The reason for the 45's was to reduce cost for the AC series races. Since this format was optional I think they wanted cost to be as little as possible and make everything able to fit in shipping containers.

A 10kt reduction in windspeed from 30kts to 20kts is a ~50% reduction in power since sail force on a wing is proportional to the square of velocity. Seems like boats designed to capture up to 30kts of wind will be underpowered now relative to boats that were not or are still under construction.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #347  
Old 05-27-2013
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,511
Thanks: 96
Thanked 97 Times in 91 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

I love how the Kiwis just stay relatively quiet on the safety issues and keep working. I would give CD's dog's left testicle to sail like those guys.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 05-27-2013 at 08:39 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #348  
Old 05-27-2013
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,041
Thanks: 30
Thanked 56 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I love how the Kiwis just stay relatively quiet on the safety issues and keep working. I would give CD's dog's left testicle to sail like those guys.
I agree they are doggedly tenacious and grind away. I have admired their program for years and its one of my bucket list places to visit someday.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


“Sailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.”- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #349  
Old 06-10-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,201
Thanks: 21
Thanked 98 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

"Andrew ‘Bart’ Simpson’s team, the Swedish America’s Cup challenger Artemis Racing is to try and take part in the elimination trials which start in San Francisco in four weeks, but they do not expect to be able to race until up to a month after that."

Artemis in race to make America?s Cup start line - Sailing - More Sports - The Independent

That is a bit confusing

They explain it better here:

America's Cup: "Eine störende und kolossale Pleite" - Sport*|*YACHT.DE

America's Cup: Artemis macht weiter, doch Chaos droht - Sport*|*YACHT.DE


You guys are going to have the "pleasure" to see ghost races, where a AC72 will have to compete against a non existent boat to qualify

"“We are working around-the-clock to get our new boat ready, in the water and to prepare our team to race” said Paul Cayard, CEO of Artemis Racing. "We still have a mountain to climb, but our plan is to launch our new boat in early July and get ourselves in a position where we can race by the end of the month."

That leaves just Emirates Team New Zealand and the Prada-backed Italian team Luna Rossa to take part in a reduced series of races which will be more like extended training sessions. It is expected that the tem with the most wins would have a direct line to the LV Cup final with, if Artemis makes it, the winner between those two also joining the final.

......

Race programmes for July and August have yet to be announced, hospitality plans are in tatters, and the event, which was billed as a spectacular summer of sailing for citizens of San Francisco and for visitors, needs a major injection of confidence."


Artemis in race to make America?s Cup start line - Sailing - More Sports - The Independent

How much cost a ticket for a "Ghost" race? It seems some were already sold and are quite expensive. Maybe the sell them at discount prices now
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #350  
Old 06-10-2013
MrPelicano's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Western Connecticut, USA
Posts: 719
Thanks: 10
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 3
MrPelicano is on a distinguished road
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

They wanted a spectacle and they're getting one... though perhaps not the one they intended.
__________________
We deal in lead, friend.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
North america to central/south america Sofiami Crew Wanted/Available 5 04-18-2013 09:19 AM
destroyed impeller CapnRon47 Gear & Maintenance 22 08-01-2012 11:06 PM
Sailing club is destroyed in fire NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-23-2012 04:10 PM
Rhode Island YC Destroyed by Fire SOUNDBOUNDER General Discussion (sailing related) 5 01-21-2011 04:58 PM
Hammond, Indiana, Marina effectively destroyed jdkirkk General Discussion (sailing related) 4 03-01-2006 11:43 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:21 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.