Another America’s Cup entry destroyed - Page 5 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree121Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #41  
Old 05-11-2013
bobmcgov's Avatar
baDumbumbum
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Windy Wyoming
Posts: 1,020
Thanks: 0
Thanked 24 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 7
bobmcgov will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by killarney_sailor View Post
I would like to see the AC go back to a competition between countries and not corporations. In recent years the idea that these are national boats is nonsense. It is one rich guy's company against another's with the key question being who can afford to buy the best Kiwi talent.
Never was national, except nominally. The field America beat to win the trophy that now bears its name were all yachts owned by wealthy Brits, aristocrats and industrialists; America was built entirely with funds from a NYYC syndicate -- ie, Hamptons money.

Look at the names peppering the race: Ashbury, Barr, Morgan, the Earl of Dunraven, Lipton, Vanderbilt, Rothschild, Turner.... Every boat has to fly a flag, and tying it to a nation gins up enthusiasm amongst the Great Unwashed. But for the most part the Cup was and is a pissing match for wealthy individuals & yacht clubs. Always using mercenaries and professionals for crew. Always trying to poach talent and ideas from other camps. It's corporate to the bone & always has been.
jephotog, PCP, chef2sail and 1 others like this.
__________________
Buccaneer18, Grainnia
SJ21, Diarmuid
Albin Ballad 30, Fionn

Last edited by bobmcgov; 05-11-2013 at 10:14 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #42  
Old 05-11-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmcgov View Post
Never was national, except nominally. The field America beat to win the trophy that now bears its name were all yachts owned by wealthy Brits, aristocrats and industrialists; America was built entirely with funds from a NYYC syndicate -- ie, Hamptons money.

Look at the names peppering the race: Ashbury, Barr, Morgan, the Earl of Dunraven, Vanderbuilt, Rothschild, Turner.... Every boat has to fly a flag, and tying it to a nation gins up enthusiasm, but for the most part the Cup was and is a pissing match for wealthy individuals & yacht clubs. Always using mercenaries and professionals for crew. Always trying to poach talent and ideas from other camps. It's corporate to the bone & always has been.
Yes you are right. That does not mean that I would like it would be something else and I am not talking about the boats. It would be nice if it was in fact a nations match in what regards sailing and technology. I mean only sailors from that nation, boats built and designed there by nationals. It could be promoted by an association of all nation sailing clubs with the sponsorship of rich guys that belong to the several sailing Clubs.

As it is, it is so expensive (the sponsorship don't pay it) and dependent of billionaires money that the nation that has more professional sailors, more racing boats and more sail races cannot afford to have a boat competing on the AC.

Yes, I know, I am dreaming

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #43  
Old 05-11-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jephotog View Post
I want to go back the old days when you built the boat at home crewed it with people from your own country, sailed it to wherever the competition was taking place then sailed it back home.
That's the reason AC staid in America for so long. I mean you could not make a boat strong enough to sail safely the Atlantic and able to compete with a much lighter and fragile boat designed only for racing inshore the AC in the US.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #44  
Old 05-11-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: VA
Posts: 2,006
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 9
PalmettoSailor will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Its interesting how this accident has brought biases to the surface. Its clear there are lot of people that don't like the new AC boats or the format created for them, but the AC has always pushed the state of the art of boat design and the AC72's are definitely the leading edge of sail propelled craft. Also, its arguably the only thing keeping the AC alive, though there are no doubt those that would prefer to see it die rather than evolve.

There was little to no hue and cry over the boats or race format when many sailors were lost on the Farallon's or N2E (only the skipper/crews were vilified in those cases), or when VOR sailors have been lost. Some did express opposition to "cruise races" formats that resulted in the loss of Rule 62, but again it was mainly the skipper that bore the brunt of the sailing communities scorn.

For me, all these accidents and more at even lower levels or racing provide evidence of my assertion that sailing and especially racing, by its nature, is dangerous and sailors are occasionally killed participating at every level from club racing right up to the top. If you don't like the new AC boats, that's great, but don't fool yourself into thinking the new boat or format is more or less dangerous than any other. There just is no evidence to support that assertion at this point.

If you want old school mono-hull racing identical boats, there is the Congressional Cup, NYYC, One Design racing all over the country, etc.
chef2sail and smackdaddy like this.
__________________
PalmettoSailor
s/v Palmetto Moon
1991 Catalina 36

Last edited by PalmettoSailor; 05-11-2013 at 07:35 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #45  
Old 05-11-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,644
Thanks: 10
Thanked 110 Times in 105 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Its important to keep this in mind. It's their event, they can race whatever they want and make whatever rules they want. Much of our discussion is like criticizing two sailors that leave the marina to race each other and suggest we know better.

However, in the context of whether the race can or will attract spectators or make money, its entirely fair game. I do not think that risking their lives on fragile boats or creating a NASCAR style anticipation is acceptable. National pride would be a much better reason to draw spectators. While it never was national, the mystique of Stars and Stripes certainly felt national in Dennis Connor's day and he often raised money from several, albeit mega-wealthy, sponsors. It wasn't just one guy with all the money. That said, I believe he was also the guy that turned the corner to full-time year-round paid crew.

So, they can do whatever they want. They can't risk others lives for their own amusement or to attract money from spectators.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #46  
Old 05-11-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
It's their event... attract money from spectators.
I think that that is the biggest problem with this particular edition: Not attractive to sponsors and probably not self sustained without billionaires money.

The boats and the development are just too expensive to make this event a commercially attractive one. It is possible that Artemis will have not the money to recover from the loss of a boat but even if they continue only with one boat they will not stand a chance to have the money to continue development at the same level of Oracle, not even close.

Several teams that started the way to the AC had given up for lack of sustainability in what regards sponsorship.

Yes, I agree with Palmetto that the AC should be the top in sailing research in what regards racing boats and I don't like the level of conservatism on this forum where most people don't follow or like sail races but when they express an opinion about the biggest sail racing event they suggest it should be raced in good old designed boats.

The AC has to be a success not only in what regards sailing development but also in what regards commercial success and sustainability. They should not look to the stock cars races as a model, but to F1.

Extreme sports are dangerous and sailing at the limit is as dangerous as any other. Sure the risks should be limited but if they are not doing it in an extreme way and were using older safer, slower boats, then they would not be at the edge of sailing and that is what AC is all about.

I don't think it is their event, it is the biggest sailing event and it belongs to all that love sail racing.

Regards

Paulo
chef2sail likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 05-11-2013 at 08:29 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #47  
Old 05-11-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,599
Thanks: 31
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

No one has a gun to their head or family hostage when they sign on to do a AC race. They go into it fully cognizent of the risks involved. Yes it is a platform for development. However, it remains a coastal race without the glamor, long term physical, and psychological demands of the long distance ocean races. It similarly lacks the ability to engage most sailors emotionally ( same issue basketball now faces for similar reasons hard to personally identify with giants playing game nothing like what you did as a kid. With AC can't identify with the boats, nature of sailing or skill set). Also it doesn't engage the general public anymore. Had opportunity to watch the races off R.I and Coronado. Like to watch F1 but NASCAR not so much. Watching the boarders and hydroplaners go for a speed record is a kick but you know from the start it's out there and a different world from yours. Will take a pass on AC and just watch the "highlights"
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #48  
Old 05-11-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,644
Thanks: 10
Thanked 110 Times in 105 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
.......I don't think it is their event, it is the biggest sailing event and it belongs to all that love sail racing.....
I'm with you on the emotion of this statement, but I know you are fully aware of it being factually untrue.

If not for the modern need to fund boats beyond the edge of even the most wealthy in the world, there wouldn't be advertising, sponsors or spectator events. All these are influencing current decisions beyond simply designing cutting edge technology to win.

Even F1 has limits to what they will allow. Anyone can make the car go faster.

That's my problem with modern AC. While I'm not personally attracted to the Cats and Tris, its the fact that they are pushing beyond the limits of safety and it feels they are doing so for attention, to go faster and be more exciting, not advancement.

Are tactics as relevant as they used to be? Most spectators don't understand the tactics. At that level, I would even be one of them. The best crewed boat used to have a chance to beat the best engineered boat. Not anymore. What is getting attention, therefore sponsors, is raw speed and thrill.

Good for them, as long as they aren't risking lives doing it. And they presently are.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #49  
Old 05-11-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Oceanside CA
Posts: 685
Thanks: 3
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Rep Power: 13
jephotog is on a distinguished road
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The boats and the development are just too expensive to make this event a commercially attractive one. It is possible that Artemis will have not the money to recover from the loss of a boat but even if they continue only with one boat they will not stand a chance to have the money to continue development at the same level of Oracle, not even close.
Maybe this is Larry Ellison's plan to just outspend his competitors until they can't afford to compete. It worked for Reagan.
Minnesail likes this.
__________________
Jordan
West Wight Potter 14 "Lemon Drop"
Oceanside CA
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Last edited by jephotog; 05-11-2013 at 10:45 AM. Reason: Can't spell
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #50  
Old 05-11-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 8,644
Thanks: 10
Thanked 110 Times in 105 Posts
Rep Power: 6
Minnewaska will become famous soon enough Minnewaska will become famous soon enough
Re: Another America’s Cup entry destroyed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jephotog View Post
Maybe this is Larry Ellison's plan to just outspend his competitors until they can't afford to compete. It worked for Regan.
It's not inconceivable, but typically narcissistic to have no one to compete with. The irony is that you can't really say you're the best, if you can't prove it against a similar field. That will get to him.

Who's Regan?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Jeanneau 54DS

In the harsh marine environment, something is always in need of repair. Margaritas fix everything.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
North america to central/south america Sofiami Crew Wanted/Available 5 04-18-2013 08:19 AM
destroyed impeller CapnRon47 Gear & Maintenance 22 08-01-2012 10:06 PM
Sailing club is destroyed in fire NewsReader News Feeds 0 06-23-2012 03:10 PM
Rhode Island YC Destroyed by Fire SOUNDBOUNDER General Discussion (sailing related) 5 01-21-2011 03:58 PM
Hammond, Indiana, Marina effectively destroyed jdkirkk General Discussion (sailing related) 4 03-01-2006 10:43 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:15 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012