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  #31  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post
Criminal and civil courts are two entirely different beasts. OJ was found guilty in civil court.
BTW I think the MODS should move this thread to the OTH/REL/ POL section


OMG.....Do tell...Really...your kidding. Thanks for the tidbit, we already knew. I learned that from Judge Judy.
Next you be claiming there is a different burden of proof in criminal and civil cases right? (grin)

The point remains as stated...its not a slam dunk. Going to court is ]NEVER a slam dunk. Criminal or civil there is no difference, its still court. Roll the dice. Ever been to divorce court...that's a civil court.

As long as there are lawyers involved and juries decide, slam dunks in court are not always slam dunks. That's why they have juries and court if necessary.

Don't fall into the "deep pockets trap" also. If the owner wasn't liable/ culpable he doesn't have to pay and wouldn't.

Its the only way we will find out the truth about the owners role. He won't hide behind the fifth amendment. He can defend himself now as he was named. If he wasn't responsible he will not have to pay and will not settle. He can blame the Captain entirely too and owe nothing.

Care to speculate/ rush to judgment what the percentage of responsibility the jury/ settlement will assign the owner compared to the Captain?
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Last edited by chef2sail; 05-12-2013 at 05:44 AM.
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  #32  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Care to speculate/ rush to judgment what the percentage of responsibility the jury/ settlement will assign the owner compared to the Captain?
Comparative negligence is not an issue. The Captain is not a party. No one has suggested the Plaintiff Claudene Christian was negligent. That would be the only comparative negligence that could possibly be at issue. The Defendants are the Bounty operating organization and Hansen individually.

No one in his right mind contests the fact that the Captain was negligent, reckless, and/or "mentally detached from reality." Sensible people do not sail into superstorms in decrepit movie props and put others' lives at risk.

The issue now is whether Hansen and the Bounty operating organization should be held liable civilly for the actions of Captain Nutcase because he was so obviously incompetent and lacking in sound judgment and because the ship was so obviously unfit for sea duty.

It is time for the defenders of Capt. Woolridge to accept reality. His culpability is beyond rational dispute. No matter how much you liked the guy, he was responsible for the death of a young woman and for endangering his entire crew. Everyone who cares about sailing and human life should be condemning his actions.

There is a huge difference between the known risks we all assume when we set out to sea and his reckless indifference to reality. There is also a huge difference between voluntarily assuming risk to yourself, and exposing others for whom you are responsible to risk, especially when they don't know any better.
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Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Comparative negligence is not an issue. The Captain is not a party. No one has suggested the Plaintiff Claudene Christian was negligent. That would be the only comparative negligence that could possibly be at issue. The Defendants are the Bounty operating organization and Hansen individually.

No one in his right mind contests the fact that the Captain was negligent, reckless, and/or "mentally detached from reality." Sensible people do not sail into superstorms in decrepit movie props and put others' lives at risk.

The issue now is whether Hansen and the Bounty operating organization should be held liable civilly for the actions of Captain Nutcase because he was so obviously incompetent and lacking in sound judgment and because the ship was so obviously unfit for sea duty.

It is time for the defenders of Capt. Woolridge to accept reality. His culpability is beyond rational dispute. No matter how much you liked the guy, he was responsible for the death of a young woman and for endangering his entire crew. Everyone who cares about sailing and human life should be condemning his actions.

There is a huge difference between the known risks we all assume when we set out to sea and his reckless indifference to reality. There is also a huge difference between voluntarily assuming risk to yourself, and exposing others for whom you are responsible to risk, especially when they don't know any better.
Well, I have said that long ago, but you say it so much better

Regards

Paulo
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  #34  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
BTW I think the MODS should move this thread to the OTH/REL/ POL section


OMG.....Do tell...Really...your kidding. Thanks for the tidbit, we already knew. I learned that from Judge Judy.
If it ends up in OT, it will be from outbursts like this. What is wrong with you?

p.s. really, you watch Judge Judy? That explains it.

Quote:
The point remains as stated...its not a slam dunk. Going to court is ]NEVER a slam dunk. Criminal or civil there is no difference, its still court. Roll the dice.
I guess we'll have to see here too. There is a huge difference between criminal and civil court, however. I actually predict a settlement, which I contend would justify the slam dunk. That may come from an insurance company, but I've yet to hear whether there was any. I'm sure a wealthy individual had some, but we have to hear how he fits in first. Getting a defendant to agree on a financial settlement in civil court, as opposed to a criminal record and possibly incarceration in criminal court is a huge difference.

Most civil settlements are based upon either the potential for spending more to defend oneself to a successful conclusion or eliminating risk or both. Insurance companies are very willing to take the easy way out, whether their insured is guilty or not. Major problem with the system.

Quote:
Don't fall into the "deep pockets trap" also. If the owner wasn't liable/ culpable he doesn't have to pay and wouldn't.
What trap is that? Seems to go without saying that one must have some assignable culpability. However, plantiffs always focus on the deep pocket in civil court, its strictly about financial restitution. Did you get enough sleep last night? Something has set you off.

Quote:
He can blame the Captain entirely too and owe nothing.
Still sore? You've tried tirelessly to attribute exclusivity to those that accused the Captain of guilt, when none existed. All any ever did was find the Captain guilty based upon what they knew of his involvement.

What seems to set you off on this is that most see no potential scenario that would absolve or even reduce the responsibility of the Captain for any of this, even if the owner was also responsible. For example, if they have a recorded phone call from the owner that tells the Captain he will be fired on the spot and blackballed in the TSC, if he didn't set sail immediately, I would feel no differently about his willingness to put the other lives at risk for his own career. The owner, naturally, would be equally guilty. I suppose, if the owner sent armed men to threaten his life at the dock, I would feel differently. Can't think of another scenario where I would. If the Captain was in fear for his life ashore, I will stand corrected.

As far as the owner, judgment will follow learning of the facts there too. Based upon your preachings, I assume you will insist on waiting for the conclusion of the investigation before you draw your conclusion. Yes?

Quote:
Care to speculate/ rush to judgment what the percentage of responsibility the jury/ settlement will assign the owner compared to the Captain?
Unlike with the Captain, where there were TV recordings, eye witnesses, historic storm reporting, route tracking, friends, maintenance records, etc, that clearly pointed to his guilt, we know little about the owner or his actions. Therefore, can't speculate. It was easy with the Skipper and it seems you are still rubbed by it. Do you have a speculation on the owner? If you do, I would love to hear what you base it on. If you're critical of the group think that speculated or rushed to judgement over the Captain, I would presume you would have stronger evidence available to draw any conclusion about the owner.

While you contend a rush to judgement, I remain marveled by how group think had revealed most of the relevant information and rationally drawn the same conclusion it took an enormous investment of time and money to officially get to. The official process had to happen too, but the majority got this one right from the beginning.
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  #35  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
The issue now is whether Hansen and the Bounty operating organization should be held liable civilly for the actions of Captain Nutcase because he was so obviously incompetent and lacking in sound judgment and because the ship was so obviously unfit for sea duty.

It is time for the defenders of Capt. Woolridge to accept reality. His culpability is beyond rational dispute. No matter how much you liked the guy, he was responsible for the death of a young woman and for endangering his entire crew. Everyone who cares about sailing and human life should be condemning his actions.
James,


No one, including me is defending the Captain or said he wasn't responsible for his actions. Stop trying to pin that or aim that at me. Just because I "questioned the "mob" all along doesn't mean I don't find him not responsible for his part in this.

The truth has been testified to in the CG hearings as the facts are now on the record and in evidence,

I have condemned his actions and also held him responsible for his part in the death of his charge and the sinking of the ship. The fact that he was my friend makes it all that much more heartbreaking. So what does that say of the person(s) who continually find the need to bring it up over and over again repeatedly. To what end? Do you think those who knew him and loved him need to be reminded of it over and over.

All along I said do not rush to judgment. do not put complete faith in news reports, look beyond the Captain for others who are responsible also, and look also at the shipwright who certified the ship seaworthy. ( Testimony indicates it might have had issues in 30 knots of wind). There will be no learning from this incident.

There is a difference between condemning his actions, which most normal people do once and posting the same diatribe over and over again. I have to ask you what purpose does it serve for you and others to continue to pound away on this dead man, patting yourselves on the back for being correct on your rush of who was first to rush to convict him of murder.

All this over one small ship, two deaths. Lets put this in perspective. You and your friends must be roiling over the Caste Concordia, Rule 62, the Farlonnes if one old ship stirs this much passion.

Yes he is responsible....move on I am
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Last edited by Faster; 05-13-2013 at 02:59 PM. Reason: fixed quote
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  #36  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post

While you contend a rush to judgement, I remain marveled by how group think had revealed most of the relevant information and rationally drawn the same conclusion it took an enormous investment of time and money to officially get to. The official process had to happen too, but the majority got this one right from the beginning.
Do you have the report of the CG? Didn't realize it was issued yet?

If you mean the Captain was responsible....that's was a no brainer, he sailed into a hurricane, he was in charge. That part didn't take much thought
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  #37  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

I followed the Coast Guard Inquiry as I'm sure some of you did. There are hours and hours of testimony on youtube. The focus of the investigation evolved over 2 or 3 days into 2 major categories. How and why the captain made the decision to sail into Hurricane Sandy's path and how seaworthy the boat was. In the case of seaworthiness, they grilled the boat yard foreman who oversaw the boat's refits. The same yard was used over the last 10 years. Boat bilge pump capacity was stated to be 30,000 gallons of water per hour. That's not a misprint. High capacity pumps were needed as wooden boats tend to leak and leak profusely just before bottom plank replacement, which was covered in minute detail during the inquiry. It was stated that green Georgia oak had to be used for bottom replanking as seasoned oak just wasn't available in North America in the quantities necessary.

Although I didn't read the final report, The picture of a leaky boat with a captain who made a bad decision was grasped by all who watched these videos.

I agree, this law suit will be settled, as fast and as quietly as possible.
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Do you have the report of the CG? Didn't realize it was issued yet?

If you mean the Captain was responsible....that's was a no brainer, he sailed into a hurricane, he was in charge. That part didn't take much thought
For goodness sake, even you have stipulated that the testimony has confirmed the so called rush to judgement. No, the report hasn't been issued, but that's responding to an awfully narrow point in a discussion over significant other disconnects and unnecessary snide comments in your post.

With sincere respect for the pain over the loss of your friend, you need to avoid these threads. There is nothing improper associated with the outrage over this event and it will generate deserved and repeated condemnation for years to come. Taking on the personal mission to try to quash it, will only lead to unnecessary conflict. Ironically, when you engage in it you seem to inflame it, just the opposite of your intent.

Peace.
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
It is time for the defenders of Capt. Woolridge to accept reality. His culpability is beyond rational dispute. No matter how much you liked the guy, he was responsible for the death of a young woman and for endangering his entire crew. Everyone who cares about sailing and human life should be condemning his actions.
He certainly was responsible

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
There is a huge difference between the known risks we all assume when we set out to sea and his reckless indifference to reality. There is also a huge difference between voluntarily assuming risk to yourself, and exposing others for whom you are responsible to risk, especially when they don't know any better.
However, I take issue with this conclusion. In the hearing, not one person testified his/her Captain was crazy or incompetent. Not one...

What I think we have is an extremely well qualified Captain who was so certain he knew his ship that it lead to a fatal case of over confidence. I believe that he really thought the course plan was solid and risk low.

The fact that he was wrong doesn't make him a "nutcase" or crazy. Foolish and irresponsible perhaps, or possibly under immense corporate pressure. What ever made him do it, we will never know for sure. Least we forget, that he also paid the ultimate price for his decisions.

chef2sail I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.
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Last edited by TropicCat; 05-12-2013 at 11:28 AM.
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  #40  
Old 05-12-2013
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Re: Bounty Lawsuit Filed

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
..
However, I take issue with this conclusion. In the hearing, not one person testified his/her Captain was crazy or incompetent. Not one...

What I think we have is an extremely well qualified Captain who was so certain he knew his ship that it lead to a fatal case of over confidence. I believe that he really thought the course plan was solid and risk low.

....
I don't have any doubt that he new his ship and therefore he know that the pump system did not work properly, that the crew was not trained to work with them, that the boat was in general bad shape and was not in a situation to face really nasty weather and even so he sailed the boat to the path of an hurricane.

How can you or someone call this overconfidence instead of incompetence or craziness?

Regards

Paulo
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