Don't read this unless you have time . . - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related)
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree20Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 05-23-2013
northoceanbeach's Avatar
first sailed january 2008
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California or bust
Posts: 1,193
Thanks: 16
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 7
northoceanbeach is on a distinguished road
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

I'm the opposite lol! I want most cruises to be more like a race, where I'm jumping on the bow, sheeting in and out. Whatever. I get boated sometimes just watching the world go by.

I have a lead weight for my depth but I too wouldn't mind an electronic depth sounder. It's the drying out I mind. Things don't dry quickly here so I'm tired of it laying on the deck to dry. It works though but only up to fifty feet.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 05-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,397
Thanks: 0
Thanked 113 Times in 101 Posts
Rep Power: 4
JonEisberg will become famous soon enough
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogwatch View Post
I've done a lot of cruising and have no idea what AIS is. My primary nav tool is my ancient SILVA hand bearing compass and good paper charts. I bet I know a lot more about where I am than most people.
Well, depending upon where and how you cruise, you might want to educate yourself... AIS can be an extremely useful tool, and a real enhancement to safety at a relatively modest price...
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 05-23-2013
chef2sail's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Maryland
Posts: 6,828
Thanks: 28
Thanked 53 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 7
chef2sail will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to chef2sail
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
When I first started ocean sailing we had some great systems. We had things like sextants that could help to locate your position in the middle of nowhere. Monochrome radar could tell you if you were close to land or another vessel. The good ones left a breadcrumb trail so you could see which way the ship was heading. You could set alarms rings to attract you attention to approaching ships. It was amazing. If you wanted to identify the vessel you used binoculars and if the vessel wasnít close enough for that, its identity didn't matter.

We had RDF (radio direction finder) that you could swing around in different directions and when the incoming radio signal was loudest, that was where the transmitter was and you could use this info in a great process called DR (dead reckoning). We had barometers that could provide an indication of approaching inclement weather that allowed us to prepare for a blow.

I had a system of instruments on my boat that sort of talked to each other and provided a cool piece of info Ė true windspeed! It calculated this by vectoring the boat speed, wind direction and speed. Great stuff. We never used that info for anything but wasnít it great to know?

We had windvane steering that would aim the boat more or less down your chosen course and you could leave the driving to it while you did the DR and took sights with the sextant, did sight reductions and filled in the logbook. Very liberating stuff.

And we sailed around the world in relative safety for many years. Every year technology got a little bit better and new things started appearing on the scene like Satnav and Navtext that only the rich folks could afford. Us lesser people looked on in awe.

Today of course things are a little different. We have color HD radar, color chart plotters that can put photos of a harbor on the screen alongside a radar image and a chart, autopilots and instruments that talk to each to the extent that the skipper feels a little superfluous. We have safety gear like AIS, EPIRBís and PLBís, satellite telephones and internet comms. We have GRIB files and on-board weather prediction even though when the weather turns up bad there is precious little one can do to change it. We can send tracking data to anywhere in the world so that everybody knows exactly where we are. Most donít care but thatís OK, weíll tell them anyway.

The total cost of having all this stuff on your boat could be higher than the cost of many of the boats that people are sailing around the world. Most of us canít afford even half of it. And hereís the point of this thread:

One reads numerous articles in sailing magazines that will have you believe that if you donít have all of these things on your vessel before leaving the dock, you are incompetent, irresponsible and totally uncaring of the well-being and safety of your crew. One gets together with other sailors at safety seminars and they look on in dismay when you tell them ďI donít have AIS and Iím not planning on getting itĒ.

WTF!! Am I the only person that thinks this?

My friends appear to walk wide circles around my boat as if its very existence is unsafe to all those around it. I now have to have this stuff to conform to CAT 1 inspection requirements that would condemn every boat that left the dock in 1995. If I donít, I canít get Custom clearance to leave on a voyage. The fact that I have things like solid handrails all round and a full enclosure for weather protection doesn't count. Itís not electronic. It canít talk to you ergo itís no good.

Iím at a point where I hide sailing magazines from my wife in case she reads about another expensive piece of wizardry recommended by another journo who also probably canít afford it and then she wants to know why weíre not getting one.

Aaaaaarghhhh!!!
Actually agree with much of what you have said.

Having a fair amount of electronics like a chartplotter and a radar, but still using paper charts as well I think you can have the best of both worlds. A modern CP makes it much easier to plot and plan as well as look at tides/ currents and takes up less volume than the books. Certainly those who don't have the electronics are not less tha sailors in any way, any more than the sailors whop have them should be compared to power boaters. Its a personal choice.

I was glad I had a digital radar when I enter NYC Harbor last year at night. I have used it in the fog when ikt came upon us.

Dave
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
___________________________
S/V Haleakala (Hawaiian for" House of the Sun")
C&C 35 MKIII Hull # 76
Parkville, Maryland
(photos by Joe McCary)
Charter member of the Chesapeake Lion posse

Our blog-
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


ďSailing is just the bottom line, like adding up the score in bridge. My real interest is in the tremendous game of life.Ē- Dennis Conner
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 05-23-2013
PaulinVictoria's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sidney, BC
Posts: 1,812
Thanks: 6
Thanked 34 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 5
PaulinVictoria is on a distinguished road
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

I think not using any tools at your disposal is a foolish thing, that is after-all why they were invented. Of course you should be able to fall back to more traditional (i.e. slower, less accurate, more cumbersome but usually more reliable!) methods when necessary, but I don't think using electronics to help you makes you any less of a sailor. I do however object to people mandating that you use them, that should be down to personal choice.
__________________
Orange Crush
1974 C&C27 MkII

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 05-23-2013
capta's Avatar
Master Mariner
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: somewhere in the Windward or Leeward Islands
Posts: 1,237
Thanks: 11
Thanked 54 Times in 49 Posts
Rep Power: 4
capta is on a distinguished road
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

I did a circumnavigation from 1970 to 1979. I used a sextant, a compass, a couple of stop watches, a taffrail log, an RDF and my brain. I scored free cancelled charts from the freighters in port and in the process made lots of friends and we got to do laundry aboard, usually while being served a great meal.
For the first half a dozen deliveries on yachts with a SatNav, I checked it against my celestial navigation, just to be sure. Then I put my sextants away with the advent of reasonably priced, reliable GPS units.
The last two times I've entered Bermuda the chap at Bermuda Radio has read me the riot act because I don't have registered EPIRBS, PLB's, a DSC VHF and a host of other equipment I don't need or want. I was finding Bermuda on celestial navigation, probably before the a**hole was born!
But I love my Garmin 10" chartplotter (networked w/ weather and radar) mounted above the compass at the wheel; it gives me many more hours of sleep on a crossing vs. celestial navigation and so far has been spot on except in the ICW. I love my RayMarine wind instruments, though there are still bits of yarn on my shrouds and a Windex aloft. I LOVE my stabilized binoculars; they work!
I only use the VHF when necessary; it is not on all day & night as on most boats we meet. I doubt I'll ever have AIS, use DSC or a PLB.
Lost is the art of Dead Reckoning, feeling the change in the seas as a current or back wash from a nearby unseen island affects a vessel, or finding a tiny atoll by looking for the green cloud that will surely be above the lagoon. How many today know the formula for finding distance from a steep shoreline by sounding a horn and counting the seconds of the echo?
I've even met a boatwright schooled in a prestigious New England boat building school who caulks by putting the cotton inside the oakum.
I'm hoping to pass on as much of my knowledge as I can to Nikki, my sailing companion, but I'm not serving, caulking, slab reefing or hundreds of other things that made sailing any more difficult, tedious and fun, any more. I haven't been asked to or had a baggywrinkle party in over 40 years, something that brought almost everybody in the marina together several times a year, as boats prepared for an ocean crossing. We sail with all roller furling sails and Nikki has never been on deck in a gale to bring down the main or a headsail that has been left up too long. Harnesses and safety lines have replaced "one hand for the boat and one hand for yourself", a system where one relied on one's self and a mate, if two hands were needed.
Many of the modern innovations are indeed advances in safety, convenience and ease but without a solid foundation in the basics, people are getting into perilous situations where their only hope of survival is being rescued. I read "Once is Enough", by Miles Smeeton and some years later it saved my life and the life of all those aboard when we were capsized three times in a hurricane off Fiji. I knew exactly what to do when, in 50' breaking seas, we were without the companionway hatch; no need to think or experiment. Even with extensive damage, we sailed to a safe harbor after the storm. I have never called for help, asking anyone else to risk their life to save me from a dangerous situation that I have gotten myself into (on a pleasure vessel); nor would I. Everyone who makes a crossing with me is informed of this long before we leave, in case they want to change their mind.
I do not sail willingly into gales or hurricanes and will avoid tempests whenever possible, but if caught, I know we will be fine, if not too comfortable for a time.
The toys are great, but if you can't sail without them, perhaps you shouldn't sail until you can. Even a small lake can become a dangerous place if the conditions deteriorate beyond your knowledge and experience. Each day, during the season here in the West Indies, we see people dragging anchor, crashing into other boats or docks and making foolish choices that imperil the boat and those aboard.
Every time there are boating fatalities, it encourages governments to regulate our sport, thereby restricting one of the last experiences of true freedom; sailing on the wind.
chall03, waterwks4me and joyinPNW like this.
__________________
"Any idiot can make a boat go; it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, Ca. 1964.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 05-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,611
Thanks: 31
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Use all the electronics but still keep a DR in the log and on a paper chart. Also keep a log from the electronics. Think it's belt and suspenders but also fun. Think simple tricks like following the water temp to find the gulf stream to supplement looking at a download or watching the sky as well as OCN are fun. It's fun to do it yourself and then have the security of looking at the gizmos to see if you did it right. Also builds comfort to know you aren't totally dependent on the gizmos. Find understanding this stuff makes the total experience more fun. kind of like the difference between me and a botanist walking through the woods. I'm on Capta 's team with this one and wish more people/new sailors were too. Used to be scared of the motorboat crowd running me down. now I'm scared of every one.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46

Last edited by outbound; 05-23-2013 at 09:34 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 05-23-2013
deltaten's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Lancaster Co. PA/ North East, MD
Posts: 646
Thanks: 4
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 2
deltaten is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to deltaten
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

My boat-buddy insists I get at least a GPS....then radar, EPIRB,chartplotter laptop, AIS...yadda-yadda.
WTF? When do you fellas find time to fiddle with dials, screens, buttons and menus?
In our few sorties out, he barks when I veer off of his regular, stored and plotted course on the GPS. I'm trying to steer by sight line and looking for the next marker or bouy and can't/don't want to take my eyes off the projected course long enuff to find the screen and wait for my eyes to adjust to the LCD. Scroll thru menus, try to find little images of disparate data, or use the damm'd thing as a compass??? Fuggeddabowdit!
I find it only a bit easier to scan the depth meter. It only has one display line
BTW...polarized sunshades do not make that task any easier ;

I pulled my lensatic compass by it's lanyard from my shirt and took a quick read of my projected course (tho I knew exactly where I was) and was done before he'd even switched the menu to compass function and tilted it towards me to see...barely.

Gadget-schmadget! Don't think I'd like ta go solely with a lead sounder tho
__________________
S/V Chrysalis
'80 Watkins 27
North East, MD
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 05-23-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,611
Thanks: 31
Thanked 24 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

D- you're right. if just out for a day sail in known waters on a pleasant day don't look at the instuments much. crossing shipping lanes at night, making land fall some where I've never been, updating on a bad 96h forcast etc. look at the stuff hard.
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 05-23-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Fact is that like jon pointed out electronics are cheap. I mean I remember the time where for crossing oceans you should have a MF/HF marine radio and the price of one of those and the space it required?

The price of transmitting and receiving information (safety one) is lower than in the past and the efficiency much bigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
..
I had a system of instruments on my boat that sort of talked to each other and provided a cool piece of info – true windspeed! It calculated this by vectoring the boat speed, wind direction and speed. Great stuff. We never used that info for anything but wasn’t it great to know?
...
Regarding this kind of stuff, well today is not different from the past, even more inviting to have peaces of equipment that we never use. I am still trying to figure out how to get an useful use of some electronic gimmicks that come last year with my boat. They seem to be great, I read the manuals, operate them, they work, and the mext time I try to use them again, three weeks later, I have to read the manual again because I forget about how to use the damn thing. Must be getting older

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 05-23-2013
deltaten's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Lancaster Co. PA/ North East, MD
Posts: 646
Thanks: 4
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 2
deltaten is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to deltaten
Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

outbound;
Yes..that's a "given" Planning ahead, plotting best course and checking known sources for local info on longer ventures is the rule. Once I graduate to those sort of trips; I'll have GPS, etc to hand.
Some of the short water we have in the N. Bay needs pretty much constant attention to the course and depth. Not much time to take one's eyes off those to check in on 'lectronics

Best,
Paul
__________________
S/V Chrysalis
'80 Watkins 27
North East, MD
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Long time reader, first time poster meridiansahoy Introduce Yourself 3 07-07-2012 08:25 AM
long time sailor 1st time intro fstued1 Introduce Yourself 2 10-27-2010 10:08 AM
Long-Time Sailor, First-Time Pearson Owner edwardc Introduce Yourself 5 03-18-2010 08:10 AM
READ THIS TODAY-It may save you an engine or at least some time and money! Marleetet Gear & Maintenance 6 07-14-2008 04:28 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:18 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.