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  #41  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
Quote:
"I am trying to figure out why this stuff irks or concerns you how much electronics someone else has and what they decide to put on their boats. Why does it bug you how many times someone else uses thir boat.
Just enjoy your own boat and your own decisions what you purchase for it.

Sailing is the name of the game, no matter how everyone decides to do it.- Chef2sail
"
I guess it irks me when I am clawing my way to weather in 25 knots of wind, against a strong current in 8 to 10 foot seas, on a starboard tack and some guy (on a brand new boat with every conceivable bit of modern technology), on a port tack, close reaching, makes me avoid him, between islands in the West Indies! Or when I'm tacking up the Charleston waterfront and some guy is covering me to windward forcing me to jibe an 84' three masted schooner and 40+ passengers aboard. I guess it irks me when some idiot is dragging down on me in the middle of the night.
I couldn't care less how often someone uses their boat, but when they do, they should not be a menace to others out there. No amount of costly equipment can replace good seamanship, courtesy and plain old common sense.
Capta

So you are saying if they didn't have the electronics they would display better seamanship in those individual instances? How does electronics help or detract from poor anchoring techniques?

I understand your INDIVIDUAL incidents and of course that would irk me also. I agree about common sense also, but you can have both common sense and electronics.

Extrapolating that the electronic equipment causes the poor seamanship is quite a reach.

You don't have to have lots of electronics to exhibit poor seamanship, and conversely lots of electronics doesn't cause poor seamanship

I've seen plenty of larger sailboats "bully" smaller sailboats in Annapolis Harbor or Newport RI , boats on the same tack because they have larger boats and feel they can, showing improper seamanship, but I wouldn't make a statement including all sailboats over 50 ft. and generalize...its individual boats who do that.

I will agree that electronics has led to a comfort level for some average sailors to take on conditions they would not normally attempt as JonEisenberg has so aptly pointed out many times.

But to vilify and castigate a whole group of sailors for utilizing electronics is not valid IMHO.As I have stated almost of my friends/ collogues have learned and practiced good seamanship without and without electronics. There is no need to go back to a sextant and celestial navigation. There is no need as CD mentioned to remove a radar and consider it frivolous and contributing to poor seamanship.

What others chose to purchase and employ on their boats is their business and doesn't by itself irk me. Poor seamanship does. That is caused by the individual.
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  #42  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
The answer to your question goes to its core. How many people do you know or better yet hw many people do you think
let their electronics think for them ?[/QUOTE]. Very few . What makes you assume they can't read a chart or understand navigational theories. Most I know have purchased electronics as a supplemental navigational aid to their charts and are quite adept at reading them
[/QUOTE]

I think this may hold true for those that have been sailing a while and knew how to read a chart from before, and still maintain some of those skills. I bet many new boaters that start off with a chart plotter have never seen US Chart #1, and have only unrolled their paper chart a few times.

I have seen the over-reliance on technology a lot: not so much in sailing as in aviation, mostly because my sailing experience is limited compared to that of aviation, having been a flight instructor and professional pilot for 12 years. I assume that what I see in aviation is not limited to that field.

People buy a sophisticated airplane and rely on the complex systems to do the work and thinking for them. The person following the magenta line on a computer screen while sailing in the Bahamas in my previous story was a flight student of mine, he was overly reliant on the 5 screens and moving maps in the plane as well, literally tracing the magenta line on the screen with the on screen airplane. Another student who was trained in a traditional old school airplane that then bought an airplane with an autopilot and GPS and a year later was unable to shoot an approach without one or the other. He had a panic attack when I pulled the circuit breaker on his GPS.

I use myself as an example of technology making you stupid. For the first time in 12 years and 5000 hours of flying I am flying a GPS, moving map (the equivalent of a chart plotter for an airplane) and autopilot coupled aircraft and am required by rules to use all these in flight or at least during testing. The skills I had of navigating using raw data is now atrophying. All the electronic tools make situational awareness great when working but If something is not working or a wrong button is pushed the pilot can become lost easily.

Here is a sailing example: On a 4 day crossing of the Gulf of Mexico where all power was lost, including all our primary sources of navigation. I had also been trying to navigate it on a paper chart but it was too rough below to do anything this first day. Previous to the this the skipper was touting his celestial navigation skills, unfortunately he had left is sextant at home. Our only saving grace was a Garmin 12XL in someones sail bag

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
I am trying to figure out why this stuff irks or concerns you how much electronics someone else has and what they decide to put on their boats.
Dave
It am not against putting all the greatest electronics on board you can find, but would hope these are backed with a solid understanding of the underlying seamanship. My experience is this is less often the case.

I am pretty sure some of the people who sail are like those who fly. They fall into a range of types from those who always wanted to sail and can finally scrape up enough to own their first boat, to those who have a bunch of money and want to take on another hobby. The one difference is that in aviation you have to pass an FAA standardized and relatively demanding test to become a pilot then every other year you have to prove your skills to a flight instructor to maintain that right and even with that there is a percentage of people with unsafe practices.

There is no standardization for someone who wants to go sailing, all you have to do is buy a boat. You don’t need to have any experience, pass a test, insure the boat, and the boat does not even have to be seaworthy. The only limitation is what the skipper sets for himself and crew.

People are more willing to set off with limited knowledge or seamanship skills with the addition of EPIRB and Chartplotter than they would without these tools. Because of the technology on board they are more comfortable with the challenges of navigation and the risks with the chance of being saved if they got into trouble. How many parents were sending their teenagers on circumnavigations before GPS, and satellite communication?
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  #43  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Do not listen to everybody. The only thing you need before you leave the dock is a strong rig, VHF, Epirb, Harness and Jack lines, and a tub of this no-seal stuff that you can shove in any hole that make be caused to occur in your boat to stop water intrusion immediately. Seriously you can take a glob of this stuff, shove it in a 2 1/2" diameter hole with water spouting in, and it will seal and stop it in seconds.
Oh and you should probably have some charts of where you are sailing- So I think a handheld GPS is important as well. And a life vest. And some sort of auxiliary power source in case you lose or have no wind so that you can keep control of the boat. And an anchor in case all else fails so you can have time to get a solution worked up and avoid a worsening situation.
That is all you need. The rest is just conjecture.
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  #44  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by jephotog View Post
....


It am not against putting all the greatest electronics on board you can find, but would hope these are backed with a solid understanding of the underlying seamanship. My experience is this is less often the case.

I am pretty sure some of the people who sail are like those who fly. They fall into a range of types from those who always wanted to sail and can finally scrape up enough to own their first boat, to those who have a bunch of money and want to take on another hobby. The one difference is that in aviation you have to pass an FAA standardized and relatively demanding test to become a pilot then every other year you have to prove your skills to a flight instructor to maintain that right and even with that there is a percentage of people with unsafe practices.

There is no standardization for someone who wants to go sailing, all you have to do is buy a boat. You don’t need to have any experience, pass a test, insure the boat, and the boat does not even have to be seaworthy. The only limitation is what the skipper sets for himself and crew.

People are more willing to set off with limited knowledge or seamanship skills with the addition of EPIRB and Chartplotter than they would without these tools. Because of the technology on board they are more comfortable with the challenges of navigation and the risks with the chance of being saved if they got into trouble. ...
I agree with that, except here for having an unlimited boat licence (needed for sailing without restrictions) the schooling time and needed amount knowledge is not very different than the one to have a flying licence. On many European countries it is similar even if there is not a uniform legislation about that.

Being old enough and having been poor enough to have navigated planes and sailboats only with the help of a compass a clock and a log (air or water speed) I understand the value of basic navigation skills has a base to understand and work with any modern electronic navigation device, not to mention to pass without in case of a malfunction.

Of course, modern electronics are great in what regards navigation and I have them as everybody else but I agree they had induced a sense of easiness that was not previously existent. when people ventured on a voyage on a boat they had already mastered navigation and that would take necessarily many years where seamanship was being acquired.

The electronics make the life easy in what regards navigation and some people now buy a boat and without previous experience go on long cruises and voyages.... but the sea and the wind are as they have always been and the seamanship on those cases had not been acquired and is nonexistent. A recipe for potential disaster.

In most of Europe there is a system of progressive mandatory licences that somehow lessens that risk. It depends from country to country but basically there are 3, 4 licences till you can have an unlimited one and you are not allowed to take them all at the same time, a given time between each licence is required so this in fact diminish the risks of someone going offshore without knowing anything about sailing and without any seamanship.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-24-2013 at 11:39 AM.
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  #45  
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
Do not listen to everybody. The only thing you need before you leave the dock is a strong rig, VHF, Epirb, Harness and Jack lines, and a tub of this no-seal stuff that you can shove in any hole that make be caused to occur in your boat to stop water intrusion immediately. Seriously you can take a glob of this stuff, shove it in a 2 1/2" diameter hole with water spouting in, and it will seal and stop it in seconds.
Oh and you should probably have some charts of where you are sailing- So I think a handheld GPS is important as well. And a life vest. And some sort of auxiliary power source in case you lose or have no wind so that you can keep control of the boat. And an anchor in case all else fails so you can have time to get a solution worked up and avoid a worsening situation.
That is all you need. The rest is just conjecture.
Always interesting to see how others prioritize this sort of stuff...

Don't mean to pick on you, obviously your 'list' is not intended to be comprehensive... But an anchor and charts appear to be virtual afterthoughts on yours, while they would be right at the top of mine... An EPIRB, on the other hand, would likely be so far down my own list of 'necessities', as to be practically forgotten...

A compass would be pretty high on my list, as well... Astonishing, the low priority given to the compass by many of today's sailors... I'd be amazed if more than 1 in 20 boats out there today have ever had their compass swung, for example...

On this $1+ million 'Globe-Girdler', the compass was unreadable to a helmsman standing at the wheel... Not to mention, given its proximity to the plotter, it was rarely within 15-20 degrees of being true...




Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Of course, modern electronics are great in what regards navigation and I have them as everybody else but I agree they had induced a sense of easiness that was not previously existent. when people ventured on a voyage on a boat they had already mastered navigation and that would take necessarily many years where seamanship was being acquired.

The electronics make the life easy in what regards navigation and some people now buy a boat and without previous experience go on long cruises and voyages.... but the sea and the wind are as they have always been and the seamanship on those cases had not been acquired and is nonexistent. A recipe for potential disaster.
>Broken Record Alert<

Exactly, Paulo - that's always at the heart of these discussions, for me - and the essence of what I mean by today's gadgets "enabling" so many of the mishaps we continue to see today, when all this stuff should theoretically be enhancing safety and proper seamanship... GPS has changed the game to a degree that it's still difficult to fully appreciate, so many people are 'out there' now, that previously would not have been... No freaking way, for example, would the owner of RULE 62 had been sailing his boat to the Caribbean - at least not with that crew, or without an experienced offshore navigator and sailor aboard - in the first place, were it not for GPS making it so easy to find his destination...

>Broken Record Mode OFF<

Last edited by JonEisberg; 05-24-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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  #46  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
How the hell do you have an accidentals EPIRB activation? I have one! It doesn't go off by accident. Sits in a damned case that cannot go off. BS!!! There are idiots everywhere.

B
I'm a little curious about this too... only time I have ever had one, it looked pretty bullet-proof. But they happen; often the reported coordinates coincide with a marina!

I guess by that definition of "accident" there are no accidents... call it "non-emergency" if you like.
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  #47  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Always interesting to see how others prioritize this sort of stuff...

Don't mean to pick on you, obviously your 'list' is not intended to be comprehensive... But an anchor and charts appear to be virtual afterthoughts on yours, while they would be right at the top of mine... An EPIRB, on the other hand, would likely be so far down my own list of 'necessities', as to be practically forgotten...

A compass would be pretty high on my list, as well... Astonishing, the low priority given to the compass by many of today's sailors... I'd be amazed if more than 1 in 20 boats out there today have ever had their compass swung, for example...

On this $1+ million 'Globe-Girdler', the compass was unreadable to a helmsman standing at the wheel... Not to mention, given its proximity to the plotter, it was rarely within 15-20 degrees of being true...






>Broken Record Alert<

Exactly, Paulo - that's always at the heart of these discussions, for me - and the essence of what I mean by today's gadgets "enabling" so many of the mishaps we continue to see today, when all this stuff should theoretically be enhancing safety and proper seamanship... GPS has changed the game to a degree that it's still difficult to fully appreciate, so many people are 'out there' now, that previously would not have been... No freaking way, for example, would the owner of RULE 62 had been sailing his boat to the Caribbean - at least not with that crew, or without an experienced offshore navigator and sailor aboard - in the first place, were it not for GPS making it so easy to find his destination...

>Broken Record Mode OFF<
lol- yea ill throw a few seamanship tokens back in the bucket for not listing compass first. I can only rationalize in my mind that that would be so obvious as to go without saying- but then again so is an anchor so idk. Lol, sorry.
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  #48  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzMonkey View Post
I'm a little curious about this too... only time I have ever had one, it looked pretty bullet-proof. But they happen; often the reported coordinates coincide with a marina!

I guess by that definition of "accident" there are no accidents... call it "non-emergency" if you like.
My model epirb is super easy to activate. The only thing covering the little red button is the wrap around antenna.
I agree as long as its where it should be not being monkeyed with or left out for people who dont know what it is there for that there should never be an accidental activation.
But its damn easy- and I like that fact.
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Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Always interesting to see how others prioritize this sort of stuff...

Don't mean to pick on you, obviously your 'list' is not intended to be comprehensive... But an anchor and charts appear to be virtual afterthoughts on yours, while they would be right at the top of mine... An EPIRB, on the other hand, would likely be so far down my own list of 'necessities', as to be practically forgotten...

A compass would be pretty high on my list, as well... Astonishing, the low priority given to the compass by many of today's sailors... I'd be amazed if more than 1 in 20 boats out there today have ever had their compass swung, for example...

On this $1+ million 'Globe-Girdler', the compass was unreadable to a helmsman standing at the wheel... Not to mention, given its proximity to the plotter, it was rarely within 15-20 degrees of being true...






>Broken Record Alert<

Exactly, Paulo - that's always at the heart of these discussions, for me - and the essence of what I mean by today's gadgets "enabling" so many of the mishaps we continue to see today, when all this stuff should theoretically be enhancing safety and proper seamanship... GPS has changed the game to a degree that it's still difficult to fully appreciate, so many people are 'out there' now, that previously would not have been... No freaking way, for example, would the owner of RULE 62 had been sailing his boat to the Caribbean - at least not with that crew, or without an experienced offshore navigator and sailor aboard - in the first place, were it not for GPS making it so easy to find his destination...

>Broken Record Mode OFF<
>Broken Record Alert<

Again it is not the electronics which is the fault but the individual operating the boat and the lack of training or experience. Most of this discussion is in the hypothetical and personal ASSUMPTION category.

What is interesting is there is no basis in facts that in fact there have been more injuries or incidents created by the " electronic revolution" In previous threads there have been claims and counter claims about the actual incidents showing a downward trend over the last 5 years.

If we were to believe the posters that this is becoming a more prevalent issue you would have expected to see a dramatic upsurge of incidents with the obvious increase in use of electronics to justify the claim that this is an increasing problem. Facts don't support that. Pointing to a few isolated incidents like Rule 62 and others doesn't prove that use of or increased electronics on a sailboat has a direct correlation to people having less navigational prowess.

>Broken Record Alert<

The increase in electronics on sailboats has led to a general increase in the lack of navigational abilities of sail boat operators. The consequences of this are an increase in the number of incidents

>Broken Record Mode OFF

This is a nice theory. Almost logical and believable, but the facts just don't bear this out.

Incidents are cased by operators ( people) and their mistakes. Electronics has added the availability of increased information at the disposal of the modern sailing captain. Electronics does not increase common sense. Electronics does not increase experience. In most peoples hands electronics will not increase the risk factor either, in fact it may help mitigate it.

Many of the people I have had contact with utilize the electronics on their boat as an AID to navigation and are not dependent on them.

Whether a person choses to purchase electronics or not really is not my concern or business. That's their personal choice. You aren't less than if you choose not to employ electronics on your boat. You also should not be made fun of or deemed dependent on it or navigationally incompetent if you choose to have them on your boat either.

When you make broad sweeping generalizations without supporting evidence about a group of sailors that's an issue. Don't talk to me about logic or common sense. For the longest time it was logical and common sense that the world was flat to most people. The actual facts do not support a rise in incidents, fatalities in the rise of electronics usage.

Here is an obvious example of how electronics and technology has made some things safer.:

Many modern cruisers have the availability through SSB or Pactor Modem to download GRIB or weather forecast files which without these "modern Electronic Marvels" were not available maybe 20 years ago. Many digital radars can help you avoid storm cells and squalls when passaging. Even simple weather "apps" on phones and IPads help in predicting T storm cells on smaller bodies of water like the Chesapeake or Lakes.

The advent of electronics have made this available to the Long Range Cruiser, as well as the weekend cruiser and made predicting the weather imminently around you more exact. In the old days ( I am from the old days too ), you didn't have any information at all. You were sailing blind. Do I want to go backwards. Not me. Which is the greater risk, sailing blind
or having more information. No brainer. Does the use of this electronics make me take a greater risk.....quite the contrary it PREVENTS me from taking a risk on the weather.

I maintain the issues are the OPERATOR not the electronics.
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  #50  
Old 05-24-2013
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Re: Don't read this unless you have time . .

"But to vilify and castigate a whole group of sailors for utilizing electronics is not valid IMHO.As I have stated almost of my friends/ collogues have learned and practiced good seamanship without and without electronics. There is no need to go back to a sextant and celestial navigation. There is no need as CD mentioned to remove a radar and consider it frivolous and contributing to poor seamanship. "

I heartily agree. I did not mean to say ALL of "a whole group of sailors for utilizing electronics", only, as pointed out on this forum many times, that this equipment enables so many more people to be out there on the water far from where they should be, knowledge wise. A reliance on this equipment without a proper knowledge base, can get them in trouble and potentially jeopardize those who encounter them.
I have already said that I hold electronics in high regard. I love the simplicity and accuracy, the size (my chartplotter, wind instruments and radios all together are so much smaller than a sextant [two actually], a chronometer, plotting sheets and a half a dozen very large, heavy books) and reliability. My chartplotter screen can take a wave, hell a hundred waves and even be fully submerged for a time and continue to function perfectly, whereas any charts subjected to the same conditions could be a tiny bit hard to use.
I think you and I pretty much agree on all this and perhaps I'm just not a good enough writer to convey my meaning correctly.
Where we might disagree is on the AIS, EPIRB, DSC and PLB stuff on pleasure craft, but I do not want anyone to take my personal views on this as, in any way, a suggestion that they should "do as I do", period.
I am a dinosaur, I know it and fully realize that I will be extinct soon, and it's probably for the best. Because when that day comes, as it surely will, when a government refuses me clearance without my complying with their safety requirements to go offshore, I would depart anyway, and be doomed to spend eternity at sea (or until my food and fuel ran out) and vanish without a trace, as others have before me. I have heard tales, in waterfront taverns, of an island where sailors never die.......
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