SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Don't read this unless you have time . .

9K views 70 replies 21 participants last post by  outbound 
#1 ·
When I first started ocean sailing we had some great systems. We had things like sextants that could help to locate your position in the middle of nowhere. Monochrome radar could tell you if you were close to land or another vessel. The good ones left a breadcrumb trail so you could see which way the ship was heading. You could set alarms rings to attract you attention to approaching ships. It was amazing. If you wanted to identify the vessel you used binoculars and if the vessel wasn’t close enough for that, its identity didn't matter.

We had RDF (radio direction finder) that you could swing around in different directions and when the incoming radio signal was loudest, that was where the transmitter was and you could use this info in a great process called DR (dead reckoning). We had barometers that could provide an indication of approaching inclement weather that allowed us to prepare for a blow.

I had a system of instruments on my boat that sort of talked to each other and provided a cool piece of info – true windspeed! It calculated this by vectoring the boat speed, wind direction and speed. Great stuff. We never used that info for anything but wasn’t it great to know?

We had windvane steering that would aim the boat more or less down your chosen course and you could leave the driving to it while you did the DR and took sights with the sextant, did sight reductions and filled in the logbook. Very liberating stuff.

And we sailed around the world in relative safety for many years. Every year technology got a little bit better and new things started appearing on the scene like Satnav and Navtext that only the rich folks could afford. Us lesser people looked on in awe.

Today of course things are a little different. We have color HD radar, color chart plotters that can put photos of a harbor on the screen alongside a radar image and a chart, autopilots and instruments that talk to each to the extent that the skipper feels a little superfluous. We have safety gear like AIS, EPIRB’s and PLB’s, satellite telephones and internet comms. We have GRIB files and on-board weather prediction even though when the weather turns up bad there is precious little one can do to change it. We can send tracking data to anywhere in the world so that everybody knows exactly where we are. Most don’t care but that’s OK, we’ll tell them anyway.

The total cost of having all this stuff on your boat could be higher than the cost of many of the boats that people are sailing around the world. Most of us can’t afford even half of it. And here’s the point of this thread:

One reads numerous articles in sailing magazines that will have you believe that if you don’t have all of these things on your vessel before leaving the dock, you are incompetent, irresponsible and totally uncaring of the well-being and safety of your crew. One gets together with other sailors at safety seminars and they look on in dismay when you tell them “I don’t have AIS and I’m not planning on getting it”.

WTF!! Am I the only person that thinks this?

My friends appear to walk wide circles around my boat as if its very existence is unsafe to all those around it. I now have to have this stuff to conform to CAT 1 inspection requirements that would condemn every boat that left the dock in 1995. If I don’t, I can’t get Custom clearance to leave on a voyage. The fact that I have things like solid handrails all round and a full enclosure for weather protection doesn't count. It’s not electronic. It can’t talk to you ergo it’s no good.

I’m at a point where I hide sailing magazines from my wife in case she reads about another expensive piece of wizardry recommended by another journo who also probably can’t afford it and then she wants to know why we’re not getting one.

Aaaaaarghhhh!!!
 
See less See more
#10 ·
I like a little technology but I don't like that its
Made it too easy to sail for alot of people. I think there needs I e some manual labour involved and you Gould have to have basic navigation skills at least and I don't think ou could get those with these chart plotters and everything.

It is becoming a hit ok much like powerboats.


Too wide a statement. Many people who have good navigational skills and can use paper charts have electronics. This is a gross generalization. People who have the electronics should not be spoken of derogogatorily any more than the people who do not use or buy them. If you make the choice to buy or not to buy electronics don't beleive falsely tht either choice makes you a BETTER sailor.

While I have seen a greater dependence on them, I also see where they can also improve the safety margin on you boat. I also have seen incidents where people have tried things they never would/ should have had the not felt a false sense of security of electronics.

It's funny fielding the comments from a computer savvy cell phone carrying member. I suggest you become a real purist and give up your Internet access and cell phone. Then you would be walking the talk:)
 
#3 ·
O _ I have a good deal of the stuff you talk about on my "last" boat. but plan to tune up my skills on the old school stuff. I'm with you on this. one of the most surprising and proudest moments of my life was making it to Bermuda without taking the electronics penality and actually getting there.Fooled me completely that I could do it in the real world. Far as I know celestial bodies don't break and it's fun. Kind of like the more connected we are the less we have face time to talk and laugh and enjoy each others presence.
 
#4 ·
I like all the bells and whistles. I would like to have it too. However I know that I won't and even if I did I would still use the non electronic way of doing it. Sure all the electronics can make it easier to get from point a to point b, but as everyone knows or should know is that electronics will fail and usually they fail when needed most so you better know how to do it yourself. A perfect example that I lived through was I was on a passage approaching St Petersburg in the dark on a stormy night. A wave broke over the bow and went down the companion way hatch drenching the laptop being used for navigation 1 day before. So we had to resort to paper charts, and DR to get to the marina.
 
#32 ·
Sorry that was a bit of a generic statement - it only applies to resident boats trying to leave New Zealand.
 
#6 ·
I agree in large part. Having a hugely complex suite of electronics seems more in tune with a powerboat mentality to me.

I am currently stripping a lot of offshore gear OFF my new boat and that includes radar - I have zero need for it.

Currently I have to make do with a lead line but I want a sounder - enough's enough - I'm not a Luddite. ;)

One thing I DO want - badly - is a nice, big GPS Plotter - those things are freakin' magical. I've never been an enthusiast about navigation, it's just a necessity to me, so being able to just look at the screen and know exactly where we are is great.

I seldom turn on the VHF except for weather reports.

Basically, I go sailing to get away from all that stuff. :)
 
#7 ·
There are lots of people who sincerely believe they can sail around the entire globe with nothing more than a sextant and some old, outdated charts. Yep, you can do it, and some folks actually get away with it. Some don't! Yeah, being a traditionalist may be OK for a miniscule number of boating enthusiasts, but for the most part, being a traditionalist doesn't really make you a better sailor/boater - it just makes you a traditionalist.

From my perspective, cruising, whether around the globe, or just around the lake, or Chesapeake Bay, is something that need not be a dangerous challenge. Those electronic goodies make life a lot easier, provide you with all the bells and whistles to make cruising a lot safer, and allow you to CRUISE! Maybe I'm lazy, but I really don't want to work at cruising. I want to sit back, relax, set the sails and enjoy the ride. I want to watch those American eagles swooping down and grabbing fish from the surface of the bay, shoot photos of the action, and not have to worry if the boat is going to run aground. If the water gets too shallow, that depth alarm will let me know in short order.

I want to cruise over the reef and watch the sail's shadow on the coral below, knowing with a quick glance at the GPS/Plotter/Depth finder that the actual depth is much deeper than it appears.

I really enjoy cruising at night under a beautiful array of stars and not worrying about unseen objects floating in the surface of the water that any HD-3G Radar system can easily detect and provide an audible alarm. I want that freighter coming up the channel to know I'm out there too, even if they can't see my radar reflector. That AIS system could be a life saver.

That said, I've DR'd back to an inlet in a driving thunderstorm packing 55 MPH winds while dodging sheets of lightning. It was scary as hell. This was pre-GPS/Plotter, a time when Loran-C was the best electronic navigational tool available. They just didn't function in a thunderstorm because they operated on the AM frequency bands. I was fortunate. I came in about three miles north of Chincoteague Inlet, decided to turn left, and get real lucky. The inlet, which was barely visible in the storm, was experiencing a hard, ebb tide, and the winds were blasting from the northeast, thus the standing wave, which is normally only a few feet, was nearly 10-feet high. I was in an 18-foot powerboat and was able to blast through the wave and take shelter inside Chincoteague Bay. If GPS/Plotters were available back then, I wouldn't have wasted time looking for the inlet and would have beat the worst of the storm and have been in the bay by the time the storm hit.

So, if the officials won't allow you to leave New Zealand for that world cruise, I guess you have a couple options. You could sneak out of the harbor one night, under the cloak of darkness, and maybe, just maybe, you might successfully circumnavigate the globe and make it back alive. Then again, you just might not. Or, you could take what's behind door number 2, upgrade the boat's navigation and safety gear, leave the harbor in broad daylight, prop your feet up and circumnavigate the globe knowing exactly, within a few yards, where you are during the entire voyage - day or night, stormy skies or clear.

Sorry about the rant,

Gary :cool:
 
#33 ·
So, if the officials won't allow you to leave New Zealand for that world cruise, I guess you have a couple options. You could sneak out of the harbor one night, under the cloak of darkness, and maybe, just maybe, you might successfully circumnavigate the globe and make it back alive. Then again, you just might not. Gary :cool:
Hey Gary, the point I guess that I was trying to make is that we're being coerced by journos and in my case forced by authorities to have stuff that we don't see as necessary.

As far as sneaking out goes, this is obviously not possible even if it was a good idea because the very first thing any arrival port is going to ask for is the departure documentation from your last port. So unless you are happy to sail non-stop around the world and see nothing but ope sea, sneaking out is not an option.
 
#9 ·
I'm at a point where I hide sailing magazines from my wife in case she reads about another expensive piece of wizardry recommended by another journo who also probably can't afford it and then she wants to know why we're not getting one.
It must be awful to have a wife that keeps trying to get you to spend more money on the boat.:D
 
#34 ·
The problem is that my wife would prefer an AIS than a pre-cruise engine rebuild. My expenditure leans more towards reliability of fundamental systems than knowing the name of a passing ship.:)
 
#11 ·
I'm the opposite lol! I want most cruises to be more like a race, where I'm jumping on the bow, sheeting in and out. Whatever. I get boated sometimes just watching the world go by.

I have a lead weight for my depth but I too wouldn't mind an electronic depth sounder. It's the drying out I mind. Things don't dry quickly here so I'm tired of it laying on the deck to dry. It works though but only up to fifty feet.
 
#13 ·
When I first started ocean sailing we had some great systems. We had things like sextants that could help to locate your position in the middle of nowhere. Monochrome radar could tell you if you were close to land or another vessel. The good ones left a breadcrumb trail so you could see which way the ship was heading. You could set alarms rings to attract you attention to approaching ships. It was amazing. If you wanted to identify the vessel you used binoculars and if the vessel wasn't close enough for that, its identity didn't matter.

We had RDF (radio direction finder) that you could swing around in different directions and when the incoming radio signal was loudest, that was where the transmitter was and you could use this info in a great process called DR (dead reckoning). We had barometers that could provide an indication of approaching inclement weather that allowed us to prepare for a blow.

I had a system of instruments on my boat that sort of talked to each other and provided a cool piece of info - true windspeed! It calculated this by vectoring the boat speed, wind direction and speed. Great stuff. We never used that info for anything but wasn't it great to know?

We had windvane steering that would aim the boat more or less down your chosen course and you could leave the driving to it while you did the DR and took sights with the sextant, did sight reductions and filled in the logbook. Very liberating stuff.

And we sailed around the world in relative safety for many years. Every year technology got a little bit better and new things started appearing on the scene like Satnav and Navtext that only the rich folks could afford. Us lesser people looked on in awe.

Today of course things are a little different. We have color HD radar, color chart plotters that can put photos of a harbor on the screen alongside a radar image and a chart, autopilots and instruments that talk to each to the extent that the skipper feels a little superfluous. We have safety gear like AIS, EPIRB's and PLB's, satellite telephones and internet comms. We have GRIB files and on-board weather prediction even though when the weather turns up bad there is precious little one can do to change it. We can send tracking data to anywhere in the world so that everybody knows exactly where we are. Most don't care but that's OK, we'll tell them anyway.

The total cost of having all this stuff on your boat could be higher than the cost of many of the boats that people are sailing around the world. Most of us can't afford even half of it. And here's the point of this thread:

One reads numerous articles in sailing magazines that will have you believe that if you don't have all of these things on your vessel before leaving the dock, you are incompetent, irresponsible and totally uncaring of the well-being and safety of your crew. One gets together with other sailors at safety seminars and they look on in dismay when you tell them "I don't have AIS and I'm not planning on getting it".

WTF!! Am I the only person that thinks this?

My friends appear to walk wide circles around my boat as if its very existence is unsafe to all those around it. I now have to have this stuff to conform to CAT 1 inspection requirements that would condemn every boat that left the dock in 1995. If I don't, I can't get Custom clearance to leave on a voyage. The fact that I have things like solid handrails all round and a full enclosure for weather protection doesn't count. It's not electronic. It can't talk to you ergo it's no good.

I'm at a point where I hide sailing magazines from my wife in case she reads about another expensive piece of wizardry recommended by another journo who also probably can't afford it and then she wants to know why we're not getting one.

Aaaaaarghhhh!!!
Actually agree with much of what you have said.

Having a fair amount of electronics like a chartplotter and a radar, but still using paper charts as well I think you can have the best of both worlds. A modern CP makes it much easier to plot and plan as well as look at tides/ currents and takes up less volume than the books. Certainly those who don't have the electronics are not less tha sailors in any way, any more than the sailors whop have them should be compared to power boaters. Its a personal choice.

I was glad I had a digital radar when I enter NYC Harbor last year at night. I have used it in the fog when ikt came upon us.

Dave
 
#14 ·
I think not using any tools at your disposal is a foolish thing, that is after-all why they were invented. Of course you should be able to fall back to more traditional (i.e. slower, less accurate, more cumbersome but usually more reliable!) methods when necessary, but I don't think using electronics to help you makes you any less of a sailor. I do however object to people mandating that you use them, that should be down to personal choice.
 
#15 ·
I did a circumnavigation from 1970 to 1979. I used a sextant, a compass, a couple of stop watches, a taffrail log, an RDF and my brain. I scored free cancelled charts from the freighters in port and in the process made lots of friends and we got to do laundry aboard, usually while being served a great meal.
For the first half a dozen deliveries on yachts with a SatNav, I checked it against my celestial navigation, just to be sure. Then I put my sextants away with the advent of reasonably priced, reliable GPS units.
The last two times I've entered Bermuda the chap at Bermuda Radio has read me the riot act because I don't have registered EPIRBS, PLB's, a DSC VHF and a host of other equipment I don't need or want. I was finding Bermuda on celestial navigation, probably before the a**hole was born!
But I love my Garmin 10" chartplotter (networked w/ weather and radar) mounted above the compass at the wheel; it gives me many more hours of sleep on a crossing vs. celestial navigation and so far has been spot on except in the ICW. I love my RayMarine wind instruments, though there are still bits of yarn on my shrouds and a Windex aloft. I LOVE my stabilized binoculars; they work!
I only use the VHF when necessary; it is not on all day & night as on most boats we meet. I doubt I'll ever have AIS, use DSC or a PLB.
Lost is the art of Dead Reckoning, feeling the change in the seas as a current or back wash from a nearby unseen island affects a vessel, or finding a tiny atoll by looking for the green cloud that will surely be above the lagoon. How many today know the formula for finding distance from a steep shoreline by sounding a horn and counting the seconds of the echo?
I've even met a boatwright schooled in a prestigious New England boat building school who caulks by putting the cotton inside the oakum.
I'm hoping to pass on as much of my knowledge as I can to Nikki, my sailing companion, but I'm not serving, caulking, slab reefing or hundreds of other things that made sailing any more difficult, tedious and fun, any more. I haven't been asked to or had a baggywrinkle party in over 40 years, something that brought almost everybody in the marina together several times a year, as boats prepared for an ocean crossing. We sail with all roller furling sails and Nikki has never been on deck in a gale to bring down the main or a headsail that has been left up too long. Harnesses and safety lines have replaced "one hand for the boat and one hand for yourself", a system where one relied on one's self and a mate, if two hands were needed.
Many of the modern innovations are indeed advances in safety, convenience and ease but without a solid foundation in the basics, people are getting into perilous situations where their only hope of survival is being rescued. I read "Once is Enough", by Miles Smeeton and some years later it saved my life and the life of all those aboard when we were capsized three times in a hurricane off Fiji. I knew exactly what to do when, in 50' breaking seas, we were without the companionway hatch; no need to think or experiment. Even with extensive damage, we sailed to a safe harbor after the storm. I have never called for help, asking anyone else to risk their life to save me from a dangerous situation that I have gotten myself into (on a pleasure vessel); nor would I. Everyone who makes a crossing with me is informed of this long before we leave, in case they want to change their mind.
I do not sail willingly into gales or hurricanes and will avoid tempests whenever possible, but if caught, I know we will be fine, if not too comfortable for a time.
The toys are great, but if you can't sail without them, perhaps you shouldn't sail until you can. Even a small lake can become a dangerous place if the conditions deteriorate beyond your knowledge and experience. Each day, during the season here in the West Indies, we see people dragging anchor, crashing into other boats or docks and making foolish choices that imperil the boat and those aboard.
Every time there are boating fatalities, it encourages governments to regulate our sport, thereby restricting one of the last experiences of true freedom; sailing on the wind.
 
#22 · (Edited)
...
Many of the modern innovations are indeed advances in safety, convenience and ease but without a solid foundation in the basics, people are getting into perilous situations where their only hope of survival is being rescued. ....

The toys are great, but if you can't sail without them, perhaps you shouldn't sail until you can. ...

Every time there are boating fatalities, it encourages governments to regulate our sport, thereby restricting one of the last experiences of true freedom; sailing on the wind.
I cannot agree more.

Regarding the last paragraph many times regulations are issued over needed equipment and not competence needed and in what regards the last when they are requested as a need by the authorities, they are obtained many times in courses that bear little resemblance with real conditions, kind of theory courses with some little practice.

For allowing somebody to cross the Ocean on a solo Mini racer, on a race that has more safety safeguards than any isolated Atlantic Transat the organization demands to, what are obviously experienced sailors, many thousand of solo ocean miles (controlled) before they are allowed to race.

If you want to go and cross the Ocean on an old unfit boat without knowing nothing about sailing, in most cases, nobody as nothing to do it....except paying for the rescue if the boat fells apart or if the guy or the crew finds that it was not what they thought it was and are frightened with some bad weather that is not necessarily dangerous.

There is no amount of required equipment that will provide a solution for that. I only don't like the word "toys" to describe equipment that used by competent people can be very useful.

Regards

Paulo
 
#16 · (Edited)
Use all the electronics but still keep a DR in the log and on a paper chart. Also keep a log from the electronics. Think it's belt and suspenders but also fun. Think simple tricks like following the water temp to find the gulf stream to supplement looking at a download or watching the sky as well as OCN are fun. It's fun to do it yourself and then have the security of looking at the gizmos to see if you did it right. Also builds comfort to know you aren't totally dependent on the gizmos. Find understanding this stuff makes the total experience more fun. kind of like the difference between me and a botanist walking through the woods. I'm on Capta 's team with this one and wish more people/new sailors were too. Used to be scared of the motorboat crowd running me down. now I'm scared of every one.
 
#17 ·
My boat-buddy insists I get at least a GPS....then radar, EPIRB,chartplotter laptop, AIS...yadda-yadda.
WTF? When do you fellas find time to fiddle with dials, screens, buttons and menus?
In our few sorties out, he barks when I veer off of his regular, stored and plotted course on the GPS. I'm trying to steer by sight line and looking for the next marker or bouy and can't/don't want to take my eyes off the projected course long enuff to find the screen and wait for my eyes to adjust to the LCD. Scroll thru menus, try to find little images of disparate data, or use the damm'd thing as a compass??? Fuggeddabowdit!
I find it only a bit easier to scan the depth meter. It only has one display line :D
BTW...polarized sunshades do not make that task any easier ;

I pulled my lensatic compass by it's lanyard from my shirt and took a quick read of my projected course (tho I knew exactly where I was) and was done before he'd even switched the menu to compass function and tilted it towards me to see...barely.

Gadget-schmadget! Don't think I'd like ta go solely with a lead sounder tho ;)
 
#18 ·
D- you're right. if just out for a day sail in known waters on a pleasant day don't look at the instuments much. crossing shipping lanes at night, making land fall some where I've never been, updating on a bad 96h forcast etc. look at the stuff hard.
 
#19 ·
Fact is that like jon pointed out electronics are cheap. I mean I remember the time where for crossing oceans you should have a MF/HF marine radio and the price of one of those and the space it required?

The price of transmitting and receiving information (safety one) is lower than in the past and the efficiency much bigger.

..
I had a system of instruments on my boat that sort of talked to each other and provided a cool piece of info - true windspeed! It calculated this by vectoring the boat speed, wind direction and speed. Great stuff. We never used that info for anything but wasn't it great to know?
...
Regarding this kind of stuff, well today is not different from the past, even more inviting to have peaces of equipment that we never use. I am still trying to figure out how to get an useful use of some electronic gimmicks that come last year with my boat. They seem to be great, I read the manuals, operate them, they work, and the mext time I try to use them again, three weeks later, I have to read the manual again because I forget about how to use the damn thing. Must be getting older:rolleyes:

Regards

Paulo
 
#20 ·
outbound;
Yes..that's a "given" :D Planning ahead, plotting best course and checking known sources for local info on longer ventures is the rule. Once I graduate to those sort of trips; I'll have GPS, etc to hand.
Some of the short water we have in the N. Bay needs pretty much constant attention to the course and depth. Not much time to take one's eyes off those to check in on 'lectronics ;)

Best,
Paul
 
#21 ·
When I returned to Perryville from 6-months of cruising to the Florida Keys and back, the approach channel from the Chesapeake's upper reaches to Havre de Grace, Maryland were being dredged. A brand new island was created around Fishing Battery Lighthouse, and many of the channel markers had been moved.

After the dredging was complete, some of the channel markers were put in new locations, which really didn't make a lot of sense to me. Why would they dredge an entirely new channel adjacent to the old channel instead of just deepening and widening the old channel.

Well, it only took one trip down the new channel to discover that the Coast Guard didn't place the buoys in the proper positions. One of the red buoys was nearly 100 yards off station, and leads you into some pretty shallow water. Fortunately, the old channel is still well marked on my GPS/Plotter, thus I was able to follow the dotted path and depths remained a constant 18-feet. Without the aid of the GPS/Plotter/Depth Finder combination, if I had followed the buoys, as some suggested, I would have likely ran aground near the old dredging spoil sand island. I called the Coast Guard and they said they would look into the matter. To date, the buoy remains off-station.

I've always said safe boating is 90-percent common sense, which can easily be backed up with some relatively inexpensive electronics. One of the neatest tools I acquired in my electronics arsenal is the Spot GPS Satellite Messenger. It's a fantastic device the size of a package of cigarettes that allows me to tell friends and family where I'm at at any given time of day or night. I purchased it via the Sailnet store, and with the discounts it ended up costing about $45. The annual service fee is about $105, which is dirt cheap. It works throughout most of the world, and during my trip down the ICW, at locations where there was no cellular telephone signal, it only took the press of a button to let my family know I was safe. SPOT SATELLITE MESSENGER :: HOME PAGE

Cheers,

Gary :cool:
 
#23 ·
I've always said safe boating is 90-percent common sense, which can easily be backed up with some relatively inexpensive electronics. One of the neatest tools I acquired in my electronics arsenal is the Spot GPS Satellite Messenger. It's a fantastic device the size of a package of cigarettes that allows me to tell friends and family where I'm at at any given time of day or night. I purchased it via the Sailnet store, and with the discounts it ended up costing about $45. The annual service fee is about $105, which is dirt cheap. It works throughout most of the world, and during my trip down the ICW, at locations where there was no cellular telephone signal, it only took the press of a button to let my family know I was safe. SPOT SATELLITE MESSENGER :: HOME PAGE

Cheers,

Gary :cool:
Yeah, SPOTs sure are becoming popular, alright...

I'd love to have a nickel for every taxpayer dollar that will be wasted in the years to come on needless SAR missions triggered after a SPOT battery dies, or someone at sea hasn't posted to their blog or Facebook page in more than 24 hours... (grin)

One recent example...

Missing Honolulu boat headed to Long Beach is found with broken satellite phone

Updated: 05/05/2013 04:02:00 PM PDT

LONG BEACH -- A sailboat that went missing while en route from Hawaii to California has been found with a broken satellite phone, and relatively close to the islands, Coast Guard officials said today.

The sailing vessel "Siesta" had missed its scheduled radio contacts, and Friday authorities asked California mariners for help spotting the boat, which was described as a 44-foot white and blue vessel, captained by a Hawaiian named Curtis Collins.

Coast Guard officials in Honolulu said the crew of the missing vessel was found in no distress this morning nearly 500 miles northeast of Oahu.

The crew aboard the motor vessel "Kristen Picer" notified Coast Guard officials of the discovery around 8:55 a.m. and helped rescuers locate the "Siesta."

The "Siesta" crew cited a malfunction in their satellite phone as the reason for the missed contact over the 12-hour communications schedule the crew had with friends in Honolulu.

The captain intends to continue on to San Pedro or Long Beach, without satellite communications, Coast Guard officials said.

Missing Honolulu boat headed to Long Beach is found with broken satellite phone - Press-Telegram
 
#24 ·
Paulo, you're right - they're not toys. They are highly sophisticated electronic devices that not only have made life a lot easier for most of the world, but additionally, made the world a lot safer.

Having worked with electronics since age 12, when I got my HAM radio license, which was 60 years ago, one of the things I notice most is the vast majority of individuals that purchase GPS/Plotter/Depth-Finder/HD-Radar combinations rarely pick up the instruction manual to learn how to operate the myriad of incredible features.

In many instances the operating manuals never come out of the Zip-Loc bag. The same individuals have never cracked the owners manuals for their cars, microwave ovens, Flat-screen TV, Smart Phone, etc... This is a shame, mainly because there is a wealth of great information at their fingertips, both with the devices and the manuals, and they're not taking full advantage of what the device has to offer. In fact, many owners of GPS/Plotters have no idea what the device can do other than display the charts and current position.

Someone posted above that sailors with these systems must spend a lot of time pushing buttons. In reality, that's not the case. Once the systems have been properly programmed, it's a "set it and forget it" scenario. After the initial programing, everything else is pretty much automatic. Like I said above, sit back, relax and enjoy the ride. In contrast, you're not constantly looking for things on a 2 X 3-foot paper chart, and staring at markers or buoys through your binoculars to try to determine your position. We've all been there, done that and got the tee shirts.

On another forum, one that deals specifically with Arranger Keyboards for playing music, I'm one of the moderators. I'm constantly bombarded with technical questions about someone's keyboard and asked how to perform a simple task that is clearly spelled out in the owner's manual. This is not something unusual - it's today's norm.

Granted, some of the owner/user manuals are horribly written, and some are nearly impossible for finding answers to simple questions. Fortunately, there are forums like this one where you can ask a question and usually find a viable solution. While it's not always the case, most of the time, at least at the Sailnet, it's the norm. Now, it may not be the answer you want to read, but then again, maybe it is. :)

Cheers,

Gary :cool:
 
#27 ·
..
Granted, some of the owner/user manuals are horribly written, and some are nearly impossible for finding answers to simple questions. Fortunately, there are forums like this one where you can ask a question and usually find a viable solution. While it's not always the case, most of the time, at least at the Sailnet, it's the norm. Now, it may not be the answer you want to read, but then again, maybe it is. :)

Cheers,

Gary :cool:
No Gary, what I as saying is that some devices have so much functions that it is difficult not to forget how to operate all of them if you don't use them often. I am quite sure that I am not the only one that have to go back to the manuals from time to time...or maybe not, maybe I am the only one and I am just me getting old:rolleyes:

Regards

Paulo
 
#25 ·
John,

The batteries seem to last forever, but like any battery operated device, they eventually die. Like a posted above, you have to read the user manual, which clearly spells out the lifespan of the batteries and the type of batteries that must be used. I keep spare batteries on the boat at all times - just to be on the safe side.

Keep in touch,

Gary :cool:
 
#30 ·
I very much agree and disagree with many people here.

I have only been doing this since 95 on my own fixed keel boat so there are many here with more experience. However, many of the additions to cruisers are wonderful additions and i include them into our safety gear category.

First, if asked between a chartplotter and a radar and handheld gps, i would take the radar a thousand times over. I actually read that someone on here is ripping it out? Why? That may be one of the best pieces of equipment ever granted to yachties!! How much offshore time do you have? Passages? Why the hell rip it out? Radar doesn't show you what should be there. It shows you what IS there. Huge difference. God, please reconsider your decision.

I admit the newest and latest and greatest gadgets have gotten a little silly. Instead of improving functionality and longevity, they come out with a new product every year that in my opinion often isn't better (or worse) than its predecessor. Touch technology sucks in my opinion... And i type this from a i5! Unfortunately, you don't make the quick money anymore by making things last longer. Design in failure and woo them back with flashy ads and pretty buttons. But i degrees...

The electronics of today have made sailing and cruising much safer and more accessible to many more people. The failure is not the electronics. It is the people who use them and come to depend on them over good seamanship. It is people who have used the advances as a source of dependency instead of as another tool or aid in otherwise good seamanship. Therein lies the problem.
My favorite example is an old partner of mine from my company. He went out and bought a new sea ray 380. He had all the electronics put on it. He sat off for a restaurant many miles away on the ice at a half plow. For those that don't know, on the 380, at a half plow you cannot see anything but clouds in front of you. He did many nm like that, no kidding. He steered through the icw staring at his chartplotter and radar. Guess what- the chartplotter was off and he parked the 380 on the beach. He called sea tow and they walked to his boat and told him it was a hard grounding at $3000 to pull him off... But not till high tide tomorrow. Left him and his wife on a shoal with nothing but a 5th of vodka and a single bear claw for 24 hours. They did get him off the next day, but the morale is that electronics don't replace basic seamanship. However, they can augment it. It is up to the captain do decide which it is.

Even slokum took the latest electronics (chronograph). Didn't make his journey any less remarkable. It augmented already good seamanship.

So use the tools to make you better and keep you safer. Not safe, but safer. Not a replacement, but another tool.

My opinion.

Brian
 
#60 ·
... The failure is not the electronics. It is the people who use them and come to depend on them over good seamanship. It is people who have used the advances as a source of dependency instead of as another tool or aid in otherwise good seamanship. Therein lies the problem.
This, for me, is the ultimate summary of this whole conversation. Each of us finds his/her own comfortable balance between technology, and return to basic principles (DR and paper charts and OMG, sextants), flavored with other considerations like cost and power requirements.
 
#36 ·
I was in no way intending to bash users of electronics. I have several devices on my boat too and things like depth sounders, autopilot, SSB, wind instruments are irreplaceable.

The point that I was trying to make (and many missed, sorry I should have been clearer) is how a device appears in a magazine as "white man's magic" and within weeks all and sundry and especially magazine journos start saying things like "you should never leave a port without one of these". And the shortest measurable space of time is from the journo declaring it essential to the authorities adding it to the mandatory list.

And it's more about safety devices an anything else. My personal favourite is the PLB. When you fall overboard, it sends a message to some person in California who now knows exactly where you are.

Doesn't know why, doesn't have the ability to send your own vessel back to fetch you, doesn't have a battery life long enough for the nearest ship to reach your position. Maybe I have misunderstood the operation of these toys but to me they're about as useful as tits on a rain barrel.

I'd rather spend that money on a new top-of-the-range feather duvet for my cabin.
 
#38 ·
I am not that old but when I learned to sail a Loran was a nice luxury. I chartered a boat this week and one of my crew had 4 GPS in his bag. Just in case the wind picked up, the fog rolled in and the our home port became unfamiliar, I guess. His GPS came in handy when we needed to know when we far out enough to empty the head.

What irks me is someone who buys all the toys they can for a boat they never take out of the bay or sail if it the wind is greater than 10 or the temps are less than 70 or there is any percip in the forecast, then mindlessly stares at a chart plotter while sailing on a beautiful day. I was once on a boat in the Bahamas as crew on a passage in between islands. The skipper had some high end software on his laptop and was staring at it following the magenta course line while motoring the whole way. I doubt he understood the navigational theories beyond keystrokes or could read a paper chart.

My biggest concern is people who buy electronics and let it do all the thinking for them, what happens in a power failure? I would be even more annoyed if the state forced me to stock my boat with high end equipment just to leave the dock.
 
#39 · (Edited)
I am not that old but when I learned to sail a Loran was a nice luxury. I chartered a boat this week and one of my crew had 4 GPS in his bag. Just in case the wind picked up, the fog rolled in and the our home port became unfamiliar, I guess. His GPS came in handy when we needed to know when we far out enough to empty the head.

What irks me is someone who buys all the toys they can for a boat they never take out of the bay or sail if it the wind is greater than 10 or the temps are less than 70 or there is any percip in the forecast, then mindlessly stares at a chart plotter while sailing on a beautiful day. I was once on a boat in the Bahamas as crew on a passage in between islands. The skipper had some high end software on his laptop and was staring at it following the magenta course line while motoring the whole way. I doubt he understood the navigational theories beyond keystrokes or could read a paper chart.

My biggest concern is people who buy electronics and let it do all the thinking for them, what happens in a power failure? I would be even more annoyed if the state forced me to stock my boat with high end equipment just to leave the dock.
The answer to your question goes to its core. How many people do you know or better yet hw many people do you think [/QUOTE]let their electronics think for them ?[/QUOTE]. Very few . What makes you assume they can't read a chart or understand navigational theories. Most I know have purchased electronics as a supplemental navigational aid to their charts and are quite adept at reading them

I agree with Omatakos (Andres) statements though about the marketing of "must have" for safety as ths not so either.

I am trying to figure out why this stuff irks or concerns you how much electronics someone else has and what they decide to put on their boats. Why does it bug you how many times someone else uses thir boat.
Just enjoy your own boat and your own decisions what you purchase for it.

Sailing is the name of the game, no matter how everyone decides to do it.

Dave
 
  • Like
Reactions: dvuyxx
#40 ·
Chef2sail
"I am trying to figure out why this stuff irks or concerns you how much electronics someone else has and what they decide to put on their boats. Why does it bug you how many times someone else uses thir boat.
Just enjoy your own boat and your own decisions what you purchase for it.

Sailing is the name of the game, no matter how everyone decides to do it."

I guess it irks me when I am clawing my way to weather in 25 knots of wind, against a strong current in 8 to 10 foot seas, on a starboard tack and some guy (on a brand new boat with every conceivable bit of modern technology), on a port tack, close reaching, makes me avoid him, between islands in the West Indies! Or when I'm tacking up the Charleston waterfront and some guy is covering me to windward forcing me to jibe an 84' three masted schooner and 40+ passengers aboard. I guess it irks me when some idiot is dragging down on me in the middle of the night.
I couldn't care less how often someone uses their boat, but when they do, they should not be a menace to others out there. No amount of costly equipment can replace good seamanship, courtesy and plain old common sense.
 
#41 ·
"I am trying to figure out why this stuff irks or concerns you how much electronics someone else has and what they decide to put on their boats. Why does it bug you how many times someone else uses thir boat.
Just enjoy your own boat and your own decisions what you purchase for it.

Sailing is the name of the game, no matter how everyone decides to do it.- Chef2sail
"
I guess it irks me when I am clawing my way to weather in 25 knots of wind, against a strong current in 8 to 10 foot seas, on a starboard tack and some guy (on a brand new boat with every conceivable bit of modern technology), on a port tack, close reaching, makes me avoid him, between islands in the West Indies! Or when I'm tacking up the Charleston waterfront and some guy is covering me to windward forcing me to jibe an 84' three masted schooner and 40+ passengers aboard. I guess it irks me when some idiot is dragging down on me in the middle of the night.
I couldn't care less how often someone uses their boat, but when they do, they should not be a menace to others out there. No amount of costly equipment can replace good seamanship, courtesy and plain old common sense.
Capta

So you are saying if they didn't have the electronics they would display better seamanship in those individual instances? How does electronics help or detract from poor anchoring techniques?

I understand your INDIVIDUAL incidents and of course that would irk me also. I agree about common sense also, but you can have both common sense and electronics.

Extrapolating that the electronic equipment causes the poor seamanship is quite a reach.

You don't have to have lots of electronics to exhibit poor seamanship, and conversely lots of electronics doesn't cause poor seamanship

I've seen plenty of larger sailboats "bully" smaller sailboats in Annapolis Harbor or Newport RI , boats on the same tack because they have larger boats and feel they can, showing improper seamanship, but I wouldn't make a statement including all sailboats over 50 ft. and generalize...its individual boats who do that.

I will agree that electronics has led to a comfort level for some average sailors to take on conditions they would not normally attempt as JonEisenberg has so aptly pointed out many times.

But to vilify and castigate a whole group of sailors for utilizing electronics is not valid IMHO.As I have stated almost of my friends/ collogues have learned and practiced good seamanship without and without electronics. There is no need to go back to a sextant and celestial navigation. There is no need as CD mentioned to remove a radar and consider it frivolous and contributing to poor seamanship.

What others chose to purchase and employ on their boats is their business and doesn't by itself irk me. Poor seamanship does. That is caused by the individual.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top