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  #11  
Old 05-26-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

...and in other news, two ancient, Pearson Tritons rating 252 corrected to 1st and 2nd place in PHRF C in the Miles River Race on Saturday. They didn't even have any high-tech rags for cryin' out loud.

I managed to surf my way to 10.8 knots SOG and peg out the knot meter multiple times in a Pearson 30 and was still DFL.

Mortifying.
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  #12  
Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unkle Toad View Post
ok so it looks like the conditions were good for the 2 older boats who also had great crew and knew what to do with it .. what I take from this is that all the advancements in hull design and everything are pulling small %'s out of the air but the majority of it is still around the crew and conditions.

Ding, ding, ding...this is the correct answer! (By the way, some of you don't know what "elapsed time" means: Hello, the Hobie 33 beat most of the fleet, boat to boat, without regard to any PHRF handicap rating!!!)

Lessons:

Applying rocket science to sailboats does not necessarily produce a rocket, but is does produce an extremely expensive sailboat.

While technological advances such as carbon fiber and computer assisted design have greatly increased the cost of new sailboats, they have not greatly increased the speed potential of monohulls in all conditions.

The 70s and 80s were the heydey of sailing in the U.S.: all the recent technological advances have not produced a better Hobie 33 or a better J/24. If so, such boats would have won the race.

A simple fiberglass, aluminum and lead sailboat with a symmetrical spinnaker and a good crew can still smoke the fleet in the right conditions.

Not only is racing nonspinnaker a contradiction in terms, it is also like kissing your sister, drinking decaf coffee or lite beer, or paying to go on a sailing rally. Sure, there are people who do it, but you gotta wonder why... Here are the most common reasons:

"Oh, we are just racing for fun..." What is not fun about a spinnaker?

"I don't have the crew to race with a spinnaker." Um...I sail solo and fly a symmetrical spinnaker. How many people do you need?

"It is too complicated." So, you don't really know how to sail? Even after all your ASA courses? A spinnaker is a basic and essential sail on a boat, especially if you race.

"We ran out of money and can't afford one because we spent too much money on the boat, and no one will finance a spinnaker set up." Finally, the truth...

Excuses, excuses, excuses...

Here are some videos of the fast TP 52 "Irie" that took line honors (yes, the TP 52 is a testament to what high tech can accomplish - yes, I like it, but it costs half a million dollars):



Last edited by jameswilson29; 05-27-2013 at 04:34 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Anyone willing to spend 24 hours sitting on the rail of a H33 or J24 deserves a trophy for just that, glad they won.
kwaltersmi and happy_sailor like this.
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  #14  
Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhys05 View Post
^^ This. I mean, in a PHRF race a Westsail 32 can "beat" an Open 60...nevermind the fact that the Open 60 completed the race twelve hours before the Westsail... I'll take the (objectively) faster boat, thanks. (caveat being, of course, that I could afford to own a Westsail, I couldn't afford a single sail for the Open 60...) Point being that the results of a PHRF race have very little to do with the boats, and everything to do with the sailor(s) and the conditions of the race.
Yes but we were talking about real times, not corrected to PHRF. The Hobie 33 was sailed very higher than its PHRF. That means probably a planing boat sailing over hull speed for a lot of time for a very good crew on ideal conditions for the boat. As others had said that time has to do with the crew, not the boat. There were other boats that could be sailed as fast or more downwind with a great crew, like the j105 ot the J120 that made not so good in real time. That means probably that they were not so well sailed not that the boats are slower.

Regarding other types of boats, like a Sabre, a Catalina or Jeanneau, those are not cruiser racers and cannot plan downwind, most of them did not even had a spinnaker.

To take significant information out of a race regarding boats it is needed that all the boats are sailed at very high level (top regattas) and preferably with hundreds of boats racing and you need to look at the real times not corrected times.

Regards

Paulo
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  #15  
Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Ding, ding, ding...this is the correct answer! (By the way, some of you don't know what "elapsed time" means: Hello, the Hobie 33 beat most of the fleet, boat to boat, without regard to any PHRF handicap rating!!!)

Lessons:

Applying rocket science to sailboats does not necessarily produce a rocket, but is does produce an extremely expensive sailboat.

While technological advances such as carbon fiber and computer assisted design have greatly increased the cost of new sailboats, they have not greatly increased the speed potential of monohulls in all conditions.

The 70s and 80s were the heydey of sailing in the U.S.: all the recent technological advances have not produced a better Hobie 33 or a better J/24. If so, such boats would have won the race.

....
What are you talking about? What you say makes not any sense. it is evident that new technologies materials and advancements in design produced faster boats in all conditions.

You are talking about a backwater race where the only two modern racers were a Fart 400 and a TP 52. The fact that the Hobie 33 made a great race regarding that size of boat and was miles ahead of all has nothing to do with a being a boat with a similar performance of a modern carbon similar sized recent sailboat, but with the fact that in that race there was not any, not to mention sailed with an equally competent crew.

If you want to proof your point look at the results of major races on the states or elsewhere with top crews sailing top modern carbon boats and compare the results with the ones with older boats (I am sure you will see the difference). The Fastnet, that is almost here would be a good place to look at.

If that was as you say nobody would buy very expensive top recent sailing boats for racing. They would race in old boats with similar performance (if they existed) that would cost a fraction of the price.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-27-2013 at 07:47 AM.
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  #16  
Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What are you talking about? What you say makes not any sense. it is evident that new technologies materials and advancements in design produced faster boats in all conditions.
O.K., so why did a 30 year old design smoke the fleet then? The idea that the incorporation of Open 60 design and technology, computer simulation and design, and other high tech racing ideas into ordinary production sailboats has somehow improved practical sailboat performance (it certainly has made them more expensive) is questionable. Why didn't the new production boats beat the Hobie 33?

Now, we have expensive new production boats that look fast, but may not really be any significantly faster in practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You are talking about a backwater race where the only two modern racers were a Fart 400 and a TP 52.
Although it may be a small town, Annapolis has some of the best sailboat racers in the world. The Wash., D.C., area is one of the most affluent areas in the U.S. This is hardly a backwater area. Any one is free to enter this race. I suspect some decided not to race after seeing the weather predictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The fact that the Hobie 33 made a great race regarding that size of boat and was miles ahead of all has nothing to do with a being a boat with a similar performance of a modern carbon designed race, but with the fact that in that race there was not any, not to mention sailed with am equally competent crew.
The point is, the Hobie 33 was designed in 1982 and is low tech, yet it beat most of the boats, boat to boat. High tech has not readily translated into higher speeds for the average production boat. Where is the fast new-tech version of the Hobie 33 and the J/24? Is is possible the design was nearly perfected at that time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
If you want to proof your point look at the results of major races ...If that was as you say nobody would buy very expensive top recent sailing boats for racing. They would race in old boats with similar performance (if they existed) that would cost a fraction of the price
I am talking about regular sailboat racing, not Grand Prix stuff. I think many are beginning to realize in average sailboat racing in the U.S. that some of the older designs are still competitive, and that the tremendous advances in technology have not really produced significantly better new boats, just more expensive boats.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 05-27-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

I don't want to discuss with you. If you cannot understand what I have said...that's too bad, It does not change reality.

Today production sailing boats are comparatively much less expensive than 30 years ago.

The Hobie 33 was high tech when it was built and also an expensive boat.

Here you have a study of what should be modified to improve the Hobie 33 and make it a boat with modern performances:

http://wisemarine.com/images/hobieproject2.pdf

If someone build one know, it would be an expensive boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
... I think many are beginning to realize in average sailboat racing in the U.S. that some of the older designs are still competitive, and that the tremendous advances in technology have not really produced significantly better new boats, just more expensive boats.
Yes, and that makes you bright and the top racers that buy very expensive modern top racing boats very stupid, except that they now a bit more about racing and fast boats then you.

Regards.

Sorry, I couldn't resist

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-27-2013 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Not sure what rating the Hobie had, but IIRC in South Cal, the hobie has 3 ratings, around the bouy rating of say 100, ocean rating with some up and down wind of say 90, and a down wind projected race of say 80. NOW, that I have posted 3 ratings for this boat per say, please note, I doubt very much my numbers are correct. BUT it does show the how some regions will rate a given boat, and why the hobie probably smoked the course, adn to a degree, the J24. If a Moore 30 would have been racing, probably would have done the same. if it woudhave been an upwind race, then some old heavy clunker might have been able to do the same......

Lets all be realistic, some races do bring out the best conditions for a given boat, and that boat if sailed well, will smoke the fleet!

I would also agree, that NFS is hard to compare to nfs ratings too. Some boat will sail way faster than the 18sec credit one gets with a spin vs with out! Folding vs fixed props are also not true. a fixed will cost one more than the 9 sec credit one gets! same with furling..........

It is fun to see well sailed boats win races!

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  #19  
Old 05-27-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

A 1907 wooden Schooner just won the Swiftsure Inshore Classic:
Swiftsure 2013 » 2013 Inshore Classic Results

That's a lot more impressive to me than a Hobie 33 winning.
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Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

I don't put much stock in this result or draw any generalizations from this race , except to congratulate the winner, as any winner is to be congratulated

A paper boat would have set records this weekend in that race. For the record this is a straight line race with nothing even close to an upwind leg.

Conditions were 25-30 steady with gusts to 35 on Saturday on the Bay and they would have been on a broad reach not tacking once down the Bay down the Bay the entire course. Sunday was a repeat of Saturday , minus 5 knots of wind. It was like being in an NHRA 1/4 mile drag race instead of a true test of boats on a course race with different points of sail. How can the use PHRF rating and corrected times in such a race.

We sailed the same direction South on the Bay and on Saturday reached record hull speeds on our little 35 foot boat of 10+ knots with a furled jib.. Nothing like near gale force winds with gusts in that range to give any boat a big PUSH

Now if you'd told me that cheap plastic boat won a race heading north...that would have been a feat indeed.
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