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Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

14K views 65 replies 27 participants last post by  asdf38 
#1 ·
For all those folks propagating the B.S. that newer and more expensive sailboats are necessarily better sailboats, classic plastic smoked the fleet of boats, including those costing 10 to 20 times more this weekend.

A 1983 Hobie 33 "Mirage" and a J/24 sailboat "Rocket J" corrected to 1st and 2nd place respectively in the 2013 Down the Bay Race. a 140 mile overnight race from Annapolis, MD, to Hampton, VA, with a strong Northwest wind propelling the boats to record time.

The Hobie 33 (probably less than 20K) not only corrected to 1st, but also beat two J/120, a Sabre 426, a Jeanneau 409, a Catalina 387, a J/42, and a Benneteau First 36.7 on elapsed time.

Race results: Yacht Scoring - A complete web based regatta administration and yacht scoring program
 
#40 ·
The J24 is my favorite case as are first new sailboat was a Victoria 18 which was a nice boat on the shallow Great South Bay

But when we moved to Peconic Bay we kept getting beat up and seeing these strange looking boats go by and trust me the J24 was a strange looking boat in 1981

Anyway at the age of 26 or 27 I was able trade in the 18 and but a new J24 with a pretty limited income

At 57 with a far bigger income I find the thought of dropping 50,000++ dollars on a tiny boat a NO GO and cant begin to justify close to 200,000 on a new 30 foot

With the way sailboat sales are going I would think I have plenty of company :D
 
#42 ·
The J24 is my favorite case as are first new sailboat was a Victoria 18 which was a nice boat on the shallow Great South Bay

But when we moved to Peconic Bay we kept getting beat up and seeing these strange looking boats go by and trust me the J24 was a strange looking boat in 1981

Anyway at the age of 26 or 27 I was able trade in the 18 and but a new J24 with a pretty limited income

At 57 with a far bigger income I find the thought of dropping 50,000++ dollars on a tiny boat a NO GO and cant begin to justify close to 200,000 on a new 30 foot

With the way sailboat sales are going I would think I have plenty of company :D
Yep. With our kids now grown and independent, we suddenly have a bit more money in our pockets. We could definitely afford upgrading to a J70 or J88, but I just can't justify it based on how we use the boat. The 24 does everything we want it to, with the added advantage of being able to buy one regatta sails for half off retail whenever we need new ones. The money that would have gone for the newest toy is instead going into retirement, so we can better enjoy the toys we already have.
 
#43 ·
Every dog has its day. The downwind scream for the H33 was its day. My boat (crew not owner) beat the TP52, as well as the rest of the fleet, after correction both days last weekend even though we could not see the TP52 after a few hours it was so far ahead of the fleet. My boat is well sailed and can do well but we are in the top half of the fleet usually but dont win every time out. This last Saturday and Sunday was a close reach with a short spinnaker finish. A race with no downwind component was to our advantage. Excellent crew work and a lack of downwind legs put us at an advantage, compared to our competition, who turns out "set their sails and sat on the rails".

The object of the PHRF rating is to find the boat underated and sail it to its potential and hopefull win. Of course the super rich guy is going to buy the newest boat out there and outfit his crew in matching uniforms because he can and it makes him look good sitting at the helm, he deserves it because he can afford it. The smart guy buys a boat he can sail to its rating and can win probably more often. This is the reason Dennis Conner has owned nearly 100 boats over the years.

I think an older saiboat can be a good deal up front to get into racing but eventually the cost of campaigning will be the same. The cost of slip fees, new sails and feeding the crew does not change with the age of the boat.
 
#45 ·
Meanwhile I dawdled down the bay that day at 7 knots on main only. My PHRF is a seriously misguided 126 (New England area, no one is silly enough to race a Irwin 38 CC MkII on on the Chesapeake). The only plane she'll see is the one passing overhead.
I'll bet my time on anchor at Galesville was just as much fun :).

I 'race' a Hunter 216, stock(ish). PHRF 192.
It's a game - we crush heavy classic plastic PHRF'ing 30 seconds below us in 10 kts or less because we are at hull speed and they are struggling for steerage.
In 20 kts, we try to finish the course and stay on the boat.
I gave up PHRF racing, too easy to trick the system. I've got trophies on my mantle for being committee boat (we score committee boat as a 3rd place, I've won silver for not raising my sails).
 
#49 ·
126 seems like a brutal rating for that boat. Did the owner run over the handicappers dog or something?

We race Portsmouth here. All ratings systems suck, you can't take it too seriously. It gives you a chance to have fun sailing against non-identical boats. Without it, all I could do is match race the same guy all year long, and that would get boring pretty quick.
 
#56 ·
James, you're missing the point. The ONLY reason the older boats are competitive is because of their handicap rating. That's it. Take away the rating, and they are obsolete. Still a fun boat to sail, but boats that are 20-30 years old will not hang with a new race boat. Period.
 
#57 ·
Of course, and I don't believe he is missing the point. His point is not that the older boats can beat the high tech new boats head to head. He is simpy saying that they can be very competitive in handicap racing and can give a high bang for your buck fun ratio, which is really the point of handicap racing.
 
#58 ·
Races like that one do not represent the pinnacle of racing in North America, rather it represents a typical "run what you brung" phrf club race. The beauty of races like that is that anyone CAN win, even the oldies. Any given boat can benefit from being on the right side of a big shift, fleet compression on a dying breeze, or other teams mistakes. It is not an indication of one boat's overall superiority, nor is it an indictment of modern technology. (Don't forget, even the old boats benefit from technological advancements in sail, rope, and hardware technologies.) I have been in races like that one where even a lowly San Juan 24 has won overall. I am sure that San Juan owner was happy to get the pickle dish, and his moment of fame, but was under no illusion that his boat was superior to the rest of the boats in the fleet.

The Hobie 33, like the Olson 30 I race on, is capable of getting onto a sustained plane in the right conditions, and when that happens, all bets are off, because any displacement boats, no matter how new and expensive are not going to win a drag race. In a well set up buoy race that advantage may be partially offset by.the upwind legs where the bigger faster rated boats may be able to stretch out enough to hold their lead off the wind.

The J24 owes it's success to good marketing and strong one design fleets. One design crews tend to be more polished and know how to get the most out of their boats. At the same time they have tended to have pretty soft ratings under phrF, since the vast majority race one design so their rating has not evolved as other boats have. They are NOT particularly good boats overall, they are good one design boats. If you compare them to their more modern replacements like the Melges 24 they are complete dogs!
 
#59 ·
Races like that one do not represent the pinnacle of racing in North America, rather it represents a typical "run what you brung" phrf club race. The beauty of races like that is that anyone CAN win, even the oldies. Any given boat can benefit from being on the right side of a big shift, fleet compression on a dying breeze, or other teams mistakes. It is not an indication of one boat's overall superiority, nor is it an indictment of modern technology. (Don't forget, even the old boats benefit from technological advancements in sail, rope, and hardware technologies.) I have been in races like that one where even a lowly San Juan 24 has won overall. I am sure that San Juan owner was happy to get the pickle dish, and his moment of fame, but was under no illusion that his boat was superior to the rest of the boats in the fleet.

The Hobie 33, like the Olson 30 I race on, is capable of getting onto a sustained plane in the right conditions, and when that happens, all bets are off, because any displacement boats, no matter how new and expensive are not going to win a drag race. In a well set up buoy race that advantage may be partially offset by.the upwind legs where the bigger faster rated boats may be able to stretch out enough to hold their lead off the wind.

The J24 owes it's success to good marketing and strong one design fleets. One design crews tend to be more polished and know how to get the most out of their boats. At the same time they have tended to have pretty soft ratings under phrF, since the vast majority race one design so their rating has not evolved as other boats have. They are NOT particularly good boats overall, they are good one design boats. If you compare them to their more modern replacements like the Melges 24 they are complete dogs!
I agree with some of what you say here, but the idea that the J24 has a soft PHRF rating is just not true. The same guys racing their a**es off in regional one design events are also sailing weds nights and other local PHRF events. J24s that do consistently well in PHRF are being sailed hard and sailed well. A rating of 168 is no gift, and with >5000 hulls sailing for over 30 years, it is one of the most well established ratings you could find.

I also think it is a mistake to compare the Melges 24 to the J24, they are completely different boats. If I traded the J for a Melges, my wife would never get on the boat again. You could not pay me to sit on the rail of a Melges 24, hanging over the lifelines by my midsection. They are fast and cool boats, but a completely different design criteria and set of requirements. I can not imagine anyone attempting to do the DTB race in a Melges 24, you might as well be doing it in a Hobie or Thistle. Aside from being boats that are popular to race and the same length, there is very little in common between them.

I don't know that there exists a boat which is "good overall", just ones that meet a set of design criteria and ones that fail to meet a set of design criteria.
 
#63 ·
Ah, classic plastic… As you may know, I race on a Cal 40 that was built back in the sixties. We were San Francisco YRA (HDA) season champions last year, been third in the Rolex Big Boat Series, 3rd in the Pac Cup and have amassed numerous other victories. Old girls can still rock! It still takes a lot of money to race competitively. You can find used Cal 40s for a low as $50k, but expect to put in another $100k to make that boat race-ready. It is still a lot cheaper than a J120 or Elan however.

Competitive sailing is a much different sport here than in Europe. Here it is much more Corinthian than a spectator sport. With sponsors out of the equation, and the owner footing all the bills, racing over here (at least in California) is much more democratic and you see a lot more classic plastic than the latest design. Interestingly, in May’s Sailing World there is a nice article about affordable (classic plastic) racers. In addition to the Cal 40, there are the Express 27 & 37s, Santa Cruz 27s, Moore 24s amongst others. Oh, by the way, the blue boat on the two page photo spread is us and yours truly is the guy sitting in the back of the boat.:cool:

What is the name of the hobbie and J24? I’ve sailed on a friend’s Hobbie 33 a few times and it is a lot of fun though a little Spartan with a porta potti, igloo ice chest, and no standing room down below. It is a trailer sailor after all. A “modern” equivalent would be a Melges 32. Once you have thrown the gauntlet down, you need to track them throughout the season and let us know their standings at the end of the year. One race does not make a trend. If it did, my lowly C34 out rates a Santa Cruz 50 because on one DH race I beat one boat-for-boat.:rolleyes:
 
#64 ·
<Snip> Interestingly, in May's Sailing World there is a nice article about affordable (classic plastic) racers. In addition to the Cal 40, there are the Express 27 & 37s, Santa Cruz 27s, Moore 24s amongst others. Oh, by the way, the blue boat on the two page photo spread is us and yours truly is the guy sitting in the back of the boat.:cool:

<Snip>
Got a link to that article or is it only available in print?
 
#65 ·
I would have to say that I agree with JamesWilson point. I do agree that boats like the Olson 30 has the best $$/Fun,speed ratio, that's almost irrefutable. We have one for sale here in Lake Ontario for $25k. The fact that it can sometimes win in real time against boats 200k more makes it very attractive.

I also I agree with his point on technology. Its real simple. They are making sport boats now that are only a couple of knots faster than some of these 30 year olds ULDBs. It takes no genius to know that compared to cars, planes, that sailboats are not advancing technologically exponentially to $$.

I do agree with Paulos points that you cannot compare the prices since a new Olson would probably cost $150k now.

I'm 29 and there is now way I can just drop 300k on a J111. And we can all agree that its a bit out of reach for many middle/upper middle class people and now think that you're only going 2+ knots more than a 30 year old boat.

At the same time if I can afford it Id get a wally and have a Pogo 30 as my liferaft.
 
#66 ·
I don't have a problem with older boats, I own one, but winning a race with corrected time isn't evidence on their behalf...the whole point of handicapping is to guarantee that slow boats, including older ones, can still win. Older boats must sometimes win, otherwise re handicapping is faulty.
 
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