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  #21  
Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Taking PHRF entirely out of the picture, the elapsed time tells the tale:

Yacht Scoring - A complete web based regatta administration and yacht scoring program

The Hobie 33 is obviously one hell of a downwind drag racer.
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  #22  
Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Here is what it looks like when a $10K, low-tech, 35-year-old J/24 planes past your $300K Open 60-styled boat incorporating all the lastest technology and electronics (different race, same conditions and same effect):

The $20K 30-year-old Hobie 33 would also spray you with its bow wave as it passed you...

Last edited by jameswilson29; 05-28-2013 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

May be faster, but I'm sure the folks on the newer bigger cruiser-racers arrived in better form to the after-party
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  #24  
Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

James, I've done this race twice in my Merit 25. Basically the same boat as a J24. Once I finished in 34 hours in 4th place. The next year we finished in 35 hours and won our class. We beat "boat for boat" the entire PHRF B fleet over the line. Both years it was entirely upwind. Does that mean the Merit 25 with 20' of waterline is faster upwind than a newer 33 footer upwind? No, it doesn't.

There's is now doubt in my mind we would've won the Miles river race on saturday. We took Second last year in our class and with a downwind ride in a 3000 lbs boat that J24 surfing wouldn't of had a chance. Unfortunately I'm injured and had to bail.

Fact is that I know my boat is fast downwind in a blow. It will surf and plane much sooner than larger heavier boats. Newness has nothing to do with it.

The Hobbie 33 is a downwind machine. Take a look at the results from past transpacs. A typically downwind race. Lots of videos of these 33 footers surfing and planing. Some boats go downwind like a rocket. Others, not so much.

The TP 52 is a "Trans Pac 52" footer. It was built specifically for a downwind sleigh ride in the pacific ocean screaming down waves in 25+ knots. When you purposely build a boat for specific conditions it will scream in those conditions. Hobbie 33's are built for similar downwind conditions.

The real impressive feat here, is the TP52. Set a new course record of just over 7 hours. That's an average speed of 17 kts.

James, if you'd like discus this more, I'll be at SBRW this weekend. Stop in for a beer and I can go into more detail. I'll be on the other Merit 25 down there, not mine.
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Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
...and in other news, two ancient, Pearson Tritons rating 252 corrected to 1st and 2nd place in PHRF C in the Miles River Race on Saturday. They didn't even have any high-tech rags for cryin' out loud.

I managed to surf my way to 10.8 knots SOG and peg out the knot meter multiple times in a Pearson 30 and was still DFL.

Mortifying.
You know why...
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Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Not sure what rating the Hobie had, but IIRC in South Cal, the hobie has 3 ratings, around the bouy rating of say 100, ocean rating with some up and down wind of say 90, and a down wind projected race of say 80. NOW, that I have posted 3 ratings for this boat per say, please note, I doubt very much my numbers are correct. BUT it does show the how some regions will rate a given boat, and why the hobie probably smoked the course, adn to a degree, the J24. If a Moore 30 would have been racing, probably would have done the same. if it woudhave been an upwind race, then some old heavy clunker might have been able to do the same......

Lets all be realistic, some races do bring out the best conditions for a given boat, and that boat if sailed well, will smoke the fleet!

I would also agree, that NFS is hard to compare to nfs ratings too. Some boat will sail way faster than the 18sec credit one gets with a spin vs with out! Folding vs fixed props are also not true. a fixed will cost one more than the 9 sec credit one gets! same with furling..........

It is fun to see well sailed boats win races!

Marty
Not Bad at all. On that race the PHRF of the Hobie 33 was 96 the one from the Jeanneau 409 was 90, the one from the Jeannau 42ip 81 and the one from the J105 90.

Either the J105 and the Hobie 33, if very well sailed by an experienced crew and if the race is downwind with strong winds can get to planning speeds and on those conditions make much better than heavier boats, specially when those are racing without spinnaker. That would not be so in any other conditions where they would be slower, assuming equally competent crews, that was not obviously the case here.

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdeta...Yacht_ID=38217

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdeta...Yacht_ID=38351

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdeta...Yacht_ID=38083

http://www.yachtscoring.com/boatdeta...Yacht_ID=38822

Regards

Paulo
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  #27  
Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

From what I'd heard, the Hobie 33 was racing without spinnaker most of the time... they only had it up for about thirty minutes, then took it down as conditions built.
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Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Sounds like the same old stuff I heard when sailing my 12K 30-year old Stiletto with original sails and 8-year-old crew against 6-7 figure race boats; you're cheating, that's a catamaran and not a real boat.

Whatever. My fun/$ ratio had them buried and they didn't like that. They couldn't afford to loose, I could.
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Here is what it looks like when a $10K, low-tech, 35-year-old J/24 planes past your $300K Open 60-styled boat incorporating all the lastest technology and electronics (different race, same conditions and same effect): Miles River Race onboard a J/24, May 25, 2013 - YouTube

The $20K 30-year-old Hobie 33 would also spray you with its bow wave as it passed you...
I continue without understanding your point. If your point is that 30 year old boats are as fast as today's boats or even close...well what can I say, Wolfie in another thread is saying the same regarding 70 year's old boats and you are as wrong as him.

For any comparison to make any sense you have to compare similar types of boats. What is the sense of comparing and old high tech (at the time) and very expensive (at the time) racer cruiser (much more racer than cruiser) with an inexpensive mass production boat like the Jeanneau 409? True, the Jeanneau is faster, at least in most conditions, but then it is also a bigger boat.

If you want to compare the Hobie 33 compare it with a modern boat of the same size and type, for instance the JPK 10.10. Not much of a comparison, the JPK will smoke the old Hobie upwind, downwind in weak or stronger wind and not by a little but by a lot. have a look at one going downwind:



No, this is not a downwind boat, it is a IRC champion, the boat wins upwind or downwind and contrary to the Hobie 33 it can be also a winner solo sailing, able to go fast on autopilot. The boat has also a much better cruiser interior than the Hobie and much more interior space.

Regarding prices how can you compare prices of new boats with 30 year old used boats? But if you think that you can race effectively an old Hobie without a complete overall of the boat including new sails you are wrong...and then the boat will not cost $20K anymore and the money you have "invested" would almost all be lost when you sell the money...for $20K.

An interesting article about that:

"The first production ultralight displacement boats are turning 30 years old, and that means their price is finally down in the ultra-affordable range. I bought a 1986 Hobie 33 in New England for $23,000, dreaming of 20-knot surfs and front-of-the beer-can-fleet finishes, but its ancient sails and knotty foils needed replacement or repair, as well as some other standard old-boat touch-ups.....The worn deck is just one of the tired parts of the boats. The halyards have another year or two of life, and the sheets are dirty but serviceable. The wood parts of the cabin sole need refinishing, and the cushions need recovering or replacement, but those items can wait. This year, my family has an appointment with the front of the fleet."

Total cost, even without recovering the interior or the worn deck : $37,796

I wonder what would amount a proper boat recuperation and what would be the resale value of the boat after that.

And james, a JPK 10.10 does not cost $300 000

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-28-2013 at 10:46 PM.
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Had the Hobie 33 had any upwind legs we wouldn't even be talking about it here. Conditions that day fit that boat. You can draw generalizations about the boat from hat.

Dave
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