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  #41  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post


You wonder why sailing is a dying sport, a dying activity? It is not because we sailors are not inviting enough novices in. The marine industries stopped catering to the affluent-but-not-rich masses in the late 80s, and they have been headed down ever since. The other thing you can notice about this past weekend's local races - the Down the Bay race and the St. Michaels race - is not too many people are participating any more.
You're lumping a crap load of factors into one post, so much so that I don't know if I agree or disagree with you.

I'm pretty sure I disagree with the assertion that the marine industry stopped catering to the affluent but not rich masses. I'd argue that economics has greatly reduced those that fall into that category, and that the preference for instant gratification have decimated them even more when it comes to recreational boating. I think its far more likely the marine industry and sailboat sector especially have tried to find ways to adapt to that changing environment and have been somewhat successful doing so. You cannot argue that the size of a "starter" sailboat has increased drastically over the past 10-15 years. Apparently these boats provide more margin and a better chance at survival compared to selling more smaller boats. Lastly, I don't know that as a percentage of income that the cruiser racer of the 70's-80's posed any less financial burden that today's offerings.

Going back to your comments on rating schemes and results, you have confused me. If a new design boat completes a course of sail faster than a older boat design, but looses the "race" because of a handicap system, are you saying those are the results that matter and the old boat is the better boat?

Many people see lots of issues with the PHRF ratings, sometimes with diametrically opposed views. Many think the system is flawed if the newer boats don't dominate and others complain if older boats seem uncompetitive.

Regarding declining numbers participating in DTB, consider that it does compete with another, shorter, distance race will less daunting logistical issues.
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  #42  
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by tommays View Post
The J24 is my favorite case as are first new sailboat was a Victoria 18 which was a nice boat on the shallow Great South Bay

But when we moved to Peconic Bay we kept getting beat up and seeing these strange looking boats go by and trust me the J24 was a strange looking boat in 1981

Anyway at the age of 26 or 27 I was able trade in the 18 and but a new J24 with a pretty limited income

At 57 with a far bigger income I find the thought of dropping 50,000++ dollars on a tiny boat a NO GO and cant begin to justify close to 200,000 on a new 30 foot

With the way sailboat sales are going I would think I have plenty of company
Yep. With our kids now grown and independent, we suddenly have a bit more money in our pockets. We could definitely afford upgrading to a J70 or J88, but I just can't justify it based on how we use the boat. The 24 does everything we want it to, with the added advantage of being able to buy one regatta sails for half off retail whenever we need new ones. The money that would have gone for the newest toy is instead going into retirement, so we can better enjoy the toys we already have.
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Every dog has its day. The downwind scream for the H33 was its day. My boat (crew not owner) beat the TP52, as well as the rest of the fleet, after correction both days last weekend even though we could not see the TP52 after a few hours it was so far ahead of the fleet. My boat is well sailed and can do well but we are in the top half of the fleet usually but dont win every time out. This last Saturday and Sunday was a close reach with a short spinnaker finish. A race with no downwind component was to our advantage. Excellent crew work and a lack of downwind legs put us at an advantage, compared to our competition, who turns out "set their sails and sat on the rails".

The object of the PHRF rating is to find the boat underated and sail it to its potential and hopefull win. Of course the super rich guy is going to buy the newest boat out there and outfit his crew in matching uniforms because he can and it makes him look good sitting at the helm, he deserves it because he can afford it. The smart guy buys a boat he can sail to its rating and can win probably more often. This is the reason Dennis Conner has owned nearly 100 boats over the years.

I think an older saiboat can be a good deal up front to get into racing but eventually the cost of campaigning will be the same. The cost of slip fees, new sails and feeding the crew does not change with the age of the boat.
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  #44  
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by PalmettoSailor View Post
... If a new design boat completes a course of sail faster than a older boat design, but looses the "race" because of a handicap system, are you saying those are the results that matter and the old boat is the better boat?
That is not what happened with the Hobie. Most of the new design boats were beaten on elapsed time (real time) by a 30 year old boat. The Hobie 33 finished 4th overall in real time out of 31 boats, most larger, newer and much more expensive. (It corrected to 1st, just as the J/24 corrected to 2nd and still beat a lot of boats in elapsed time.)

Even if you dismiss the results as a reflection of the Hobie's strength on one point of sail, the fact is, it appears no one has built a better Hobie 33 type boat in 30 years of supposed advances in sailboat design and materials.

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Many people see lots of issues with the PHRF ratings, sometimes with diametrically opposed views. Many think the system is flawed if the newer boats don't dominate and others complain if older boats seem uncompetitive.
My point was never about PHRF, although some posters misinterpreted it that way.

My essential point was the fact that an inexpensive 30 year old boat blew the doors off the fleet, despite the constant hype about all the new technological marvels appearing on the water, which have made boats much more expensive, but not correspondingly much more faster.

Perhaps, sailboats are essentially low tech vessels, and the tremendous expenditures to improve their performance with high technology is misplaced and has come at the expense of lower overall participation due to new boat prices.

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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Meanwhile I dawdled down the bay that day at 7 knots on main only. My PHRF is a seriously misguided 126 (New England area, no one is silly enough to race a Irwin 38 CC MkII on on the Chesapeake). The only plane she'll see is the one passing overhead.
I'll bet my time on anchor at Galesville was just as much fun .

I 'race' a Hunter 216, stock(ish). PHRF 192.
It's a game - we crush heavy classic plastic PHRF'ing 30 seconds below us in 10 kts or less because we are at hull speed and they are struggling for steerage.
In 20 kts, we try to finish the course and stay on the boat.
I gave up PHRF racing, too easy to trick the system. I've got trophies on my mantle for being committee boat (we score committee boat as a 3rd place, I've won silver for not raising my sails).
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  #46  
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Maybe the newer boat owners had way too much money and pride invested to let the boat be sailed as hard as it needed to be to win. "I don't want to break it as i can barely afford the payments as it is"
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  #47  
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
That is not what happened with the Hobie. Most of the new design boats were beaten on elapsed time by a 30 year old boat. The Hobie 33 finished 4th out of 31 boats, most larger, newer and much more expensive. (It corrected to 1st, just as the J/24 corrected to 2nd and still beat a lot of boats in elapsed time.)



My point was never about PHRF, although some posters misinterpreted it that way.

My essential point was the fact that an inexpensive 30 year old boat blew the doors off the fleet, despite the constant hype about all the new technological marvels appearing on the water, which have made boats much more expensive, but not correspondingly much more faster.
But as others have pointed out, in one set of conditions that ideally suited that boat. In 2009 and 2010's windward races, the same boat was mid pack at best. I can't see asserting its an all round better boat. Most races involve upwind and downwind in more equal measures.

I also don't know how the owner prepares his boat, but he could be spending a huge percentage of the boats value every year for a racing bottom and the latest technology in sails and rigging, while you see very few fully race prepared modern cruising boats.
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  #48  
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
There is a reason why there are races, and actual results.
....
Results matter.

In sailing, when the wind blows 20-30 knots on the race course, the hype and the B.S. are separated from the reality. These theoretically faster boats are apparently not showing up for the races. ....

...

... Now, the bulk of boats are either expensive production condo cruisers that appeal to wives at boat shows (and rate no better than the 70s and 80s racer/cruisers of the same LOA), or expensive all-out high-tech racing boats that break fairly easily. ....

...

.....
There you go again: Today boats are not more expensive than 30 year old boats but less. What kind of price comparison is to compare a used 30 year old boat with a brand new boat?

New boats only don't show in US because US overall picture in what regards sail racing is pretty low. Nobody competing on major races with 30 year old boats in Europe and there are plenty of new boats, that normally win the races that sometimes have more than a 1000 boats racing.

Yes, race results does matter and it is because of that that on major races the ones that comes first on elapsed time in what regards cruiser-racers are recent boats...if they are racing there.

A good example of an American fast boat of that size is the J111, that would beat a Hobie 33 in any conditions, being also a very good upwind sailboat.

The fact that you have J111 racing in almost all European races and almost none racing in what you call major US races (like that one) is sad and shows the difference between sailboat racing interest (and sailing) between the two continents.

Have a look at two other modern boats that will be as faster or more downwind as a Hobie 33 and that will smoke it upwind or in any other point of sail, the Xp 33 and the J111:





None of them is a fragile boat or a carbon boat and by the way where do you got the idea that the carbon race boats are fragile boats or that break easily?

Regards

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  #49  
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Meanwhile I dawdled down the bay that day at 7 knots on main only. My PHRF is a seriously misguided 126 (New England area, no one is silly enough to race a Irwin 38 CC MkII on on the Chesapeake). The only plane she'll see is the one passing overhead.
I'll bet my time on anchor at Galesville was just as much fun .

I 'race' a Hunter 216, stock(ish). PHRF 192.
It's a game - we crush heavy classic plastic PHRF'ing 30 seconds below us in 10 kts or less because we are at hull speed and they are struggling for steerage.
In 20 kts, we try to finish the course and stay on the boat.
I gave up PHRF racing, too easy to trick the system. I've got trophies on my mantle for being committee boat (we score committee boat as a 3rd place, I've won silver for not raising my sails).
126 seems like a brutal rating for that boat. Did the owner run over the handicappers dog or something?

We race Portsmouth here. All ratings systems suck, you can't take it too seriously. It gives you a chance to have fun sailing against non-identical boats. Without it, all I could do is match race the same guy all year long, and that would get boring pretty quick.
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
There you go again: Today boats are not more expensive than 30 year old boats but less. What kind of price comparison is to compare a used 30 year old boat with a brand new boat?

New boats only don't show in US because US overall picture in what regards sail racing is pretty low. Nobody competing on major races with 30 year old boats in Europe and there are plenty of new boats, that normally win the races that sometimes have more than a 1000 boats racing.

Yes, race results does matter and it is because of that that on major races the ones that comes first on elapsed time in what regards cruiser-racers are recent boats...if they are racing there.

A good example of an American fast boat of that size is the J111, that would beat a Hobie 33 in any conditions, being also a very good upwind sailboat.

The fact that you have J111 racing in almost all European races and almost none racing in what you call major US races (like that one) is sad and shows the difference between sailboat racing interest (and sailing) between the two continents.

Have a look at two other modern boats that will be as faster or more downwind as a Hobie 33 and that will smoke it upwind or in any other point of sail, the Xp 33 and the J111:


None of them is a fragile boat or a carbon boat and by the way where do you got the idea that the carbon race boats are fragile boats or that break easily?

Regards

Paulo
Don't take the entries in one race and try to extrapolate that to all racing in the Chessy or US. There are a couple of J111s down there on the bay, and there was even a TP52 in this race. DTB is a long race that usually turns into a drift fest by morning, so a lot of boats don't do it. I am not even a Chessy racer and I know that.
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