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  #51  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by anthemj24 View Post
126 seems like a brutal rating for that boat. Did the owner run over the handicappers dog or something?

We race Portsmouth here. All ratings systems suck, you can't take it too seriously. It gives you a chance to have fun sailing against non-identical boats. Without it, all I could do is match race the same guy all year long, and that would get boring pretty quick.
Not a problem, racing a 20k pound center cockpit around a couple buoys on a river is just not my style. I'd rather go out and watch the other folks collide and fight for a 9 dollar trophy.
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  #52  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by anthemj24 View Post
Don't take the entries in one race and try to extrapolate that to all racing in the Chessy or US. There are a couple of J111s down there on the bay, and there was even a TP52 in this race. DTB is a long race that usually turns into a drift fest by morning, so a lot of boats don't do it. I am not even a Chessy racer and I know that.
Not me, It was James that said that was a major race. Fact is that besides the Farr 400 and the Tp52 there was not any modern racers on that race and not a single modern cruiser-racer. We cannot compare the performance of a 30 year old cruiser racer with the ones of modern ones if they are not racing there.

Besides, giving the absence of a decent fleet the chances that you would find a boat much better sailed than any other ( the Hobie 33 in this case) are big and that makes any boat comparison in what regards performance irrelevant.

If you have a major race with lots of top racers and lots of top boats the chances are that there will be several boats very well sailed and not only one and that makes much more relevant boat comparisons because we know that the boats were sailed by similarly skilled crews.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-29-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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  #53  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
There you go again: Today boats are not more expensive than 30 year old boats but less. What kind of price comparison is to compare a used 30 year old boat with a brand new boat?
O.K., how about this one: Apparently, you could still buy a Hobie 33 in 2003 for $55,000 : Torresen Sailing and Boating News » Blog Archive » One Design Comeback Hobie 33

At about the same time, I believe the J/105 (one of the least expensive of the newer Asym sportboats) was in the $150-200,000 range.

That is exactly my point.

Where are the new, production raceboats like the old Santa Cruz 27, J/27, Olson 30, and Hobie 33?

These were superfast for their day, relatively spartan, low tech boats for the average (did-well-financially) Joe to race: regular hand-laid fiberglass hull, regular aluminum single spreader rig, simple layout, simple gear, and regular lead keel.

Now you have to buy a scrimp, vacumn-bagged epoxy hull with a carbon fiber mast, a carbon fiber foil, and a more complicated, expensive rig and gear, not to mention electronics. The entry costs are much greater now. And for what? An incremental speed gain in light air?

The relatively, inexpensive new speedsters don't exist anymore. That fact that those boats are still competitive says something about where modern race design has gone.
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Last edited by jameswilson29; 05-29-2013 at 12:47 PM.
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  #54  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Not a problem, racing a 20k pound center cockpit around a couple buoys on a river is just not my style. I'd rather go out and watch the other folks collide and fight for a 9 dollar trophy.
They spend that much on the trophies down there huh? If I were dictator for a day, the trophy would be a bottle of wine and the rules of the club would dictate that it must be immediately shared with the fleet upon being awarded. All protests would be held during said sharing of the wine.
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
O.K., how about this one: Apparently, you could still buy a Hobie 33 in 2003 for $55,000 : Torresen Sailing and Boating News » Blog Archive » One Design Comeback Hobie 33

At about the same time, I believe the J/105 (one of the least expensive of the newer Asym sportboats) was in the $150-200,000 range.

That is exactly my point.

Where are the new, production raceboats like the old Santa Cruz 27, J/27, Olson 30, and Hobie 33?

These were superfast for their day, relatively spartan, low tech boats for the average (did-well-financially) Joe to race: regular hand-laid fiberglass hull, regular aluminum single spreader rig, simple layout, simple gear, and regular lead keel.

Now you have to buy a scrimp, vacumn-bagged epoxy hull with a carbon fiber mast, a carbon fiber foil, and a more complicated, expensive rig and gear, not to mention electronics. The entry costs are much greater now. And for what? An incremental speed gain in light air?

The relatively, inexpensive new speedsters don't exist anymore. That fact that those boats are still competitive says something about where modern race design has gone.
The Flying Tiger 10 is pretty much now what the Hobie 33 was then. It is very fast and very affordable, and they just don't sell a ton of them. The cost of campaigning a boat in the 35ft range is very high regardless of the initial price. Plus the logistics are crazy. I had a half baked idea to do more racing and get a sport boat I could trailer around, once I started adding up the costs in time, money, and grey hair, I bagged the whole idea. The price of the boat was the last thing on my mind, instead it was the hotels, gas for the tow vehicle, new sails each year, restaurant bills, and trying to get 5 people to commit to a full schedule given the realities of today's work schedules. The guys who can take that time off, or pay people to put a campaign together for them, pay for all the maintenance, crew, and other expenses, are not going to skimp on the initial price.
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  #56  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

James, you're missing the point. The ONLY reason the older boats are competitive is because of their handicap rating. That's it. Take away the rating, and they are obsolete. Still a fun boat to sail, but boats that are 20-30 years old will not hang with a new race boat. Period.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
James, you're missing the point. The ONLY reason the older boats are competitive is because of their handicap rating. That's it. Take away the rating, and they are obsolete. Still a fun boat to sail, but boats that are 20-30 years old will not hang with a new race boat. Period.
Of course, and I don't believe he is missing the point. His point is not that the older boats can beat the high tech new boats head to head. He is simpy saying that they can be very competitive in handicap racing and can give a high bang for your buck fun ratio, which is really the point of handicap racing.
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Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

Races like that one do not represent the pinnacle of racing in North America, rather it represents a typical "run what you brung" phrf club race. The beauty of races like that is that anyone CAN win, even the oldies. Any given boat can benefit from being on the right side of a big shift, fleet compression on a dying breeze, or other teams mistakes. It is not an indication of one boat's overall superiority, nor is it an indictment of modern technology. (Don't forget, even the old boats benefit from technological advancements in sail, rope, and hardware technologies.) I have been in races like that one where even a lowly San Juan 24 has won overall. I am sure that San Juan owner was happy to get the pickle dish, and his moment of fame, but was under no illusion that his boat was superior to the rest of the boats in the fleet.

The Hobie 33, like the Olson 30 I race on, is capable of getting onto a sustained plane in the right conditions, and when that happens, all bets are off, because any displacement boats, no matter how new and expensive are not going to win a drag race. In a well set up buoy race that advantage may be partially offset by.the upwind legs where the bigger faster rated boats may be able to stretch out enough to hold their lead off the wind.

The J24 owes it's success to good marketing and strong one design fleets. One design crews tend to be more polished and know how to get the most out of their boats. At the same time they have tended to have pretty soft ratings under phrF, since the vast majority race one design so their rating has not evolved as other boats have. They are NOT particularly good boats overall, they are good one design boats. If you compare them to their more modern replacements like the Melges 24 they are complete dogs!
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
Races like that one do not represent the pinnacle of racing in North America, rather it represents a typical "run what you brung" phrf club race. The beauty of races like that is that anyone CAN win, even the oldies. Any given boat can benefit from being on the right side of a big shift, fleet compression on a dying breeze, or other teams mistakes. It is not an indication of one boat's overall superiority, nor is it an indictment of modern technology. (Don't forget, even the old boats benefit from technological advancements in sail, rope, and hardware technologies.) I have been in races like that one where even a lowly San Juan 24 has won overall. I am sure that San Juan owner was happy to get the pickle dish, and his moment of fame, but was under no illusion that his boat was superior to the rest of the boats in the fleet.

The Hobie 33, like the Olson 30 I race on, is capable of getting onto a sustained plane in the right conditions, and when that happens, all bets are off, because any displacement boats, no matter how new and expensive are not going to win a drag race. In a well set up buoy race that advantage may be partially offset by.the upwind legs where the bigger faster rated boats may be able to stretch out enough to hold their lead off the wind.

The J24 owes it's success to good marketing and strong one design fleets. One design crews tend to be more polished and know how to get the most out of their boats. At the same time they have tended to have pretty soft ratings under phrF, since the vast majority race one design so their rating has not evolved as other boats have. They are NOT particularly good boats overall, they are good one design boats. If you compare them to their more modern replacements like the Melges 24 they are complete dogs!
I agree with some of what you say here, but the idea that the J24 has a soft PHRF rating is just not true. The same guys racing their a**es off in regional one design events are also sailing weds nights and other local PHRF events. J24s that do consistently well in PHRF are being sailed hard and sailed well. A rating of 168 is no gift, and with >5000 hulls sailing for over 30 years, it is one of the most well established ratings you could find.

I also think it is a mistake to compare the Melges 24 to the J24, they are completely different boats. If I traded the J for a Melges, my wife would never get on the boat again. You could not pay me to sit on the rail of a Melges 24, hanging over the lifelines by my midsection. They are fast and cool boats, but a completely different design criteria and set of requirements. I can not imagine anyone attempting to do the DTB race in a Melges 24, you might as well be doing it in a Hobie or Thistle. Aside from being boats that are popular to race and the same length, there is very little in common between them.

I don't know that there exists a boat which is "good overall", just ones that meet a set of design criteria and ones that fail to meet a set of design criteria.
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  #60  
Old 05-29-2013
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Re: Cheap Classic Plastic smokes the fleet in 2013 Down the Bay Race

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Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
..

Where are the new, production raceboats like the old Santa Cruz 27, J/27, Olson 30, and Hobie 33?

These were superfast for their day, relatively spartan, low tech boats for the average (did-well-financially) Joe to race: regular hand-laid fiberglass hull, regular aluminum single spreader rig, simple layout, simple gear, and regular lead keel.

Now you have to buy a scrimp, vacumn-bagged epoxy hull with a carbon fiber mast, a carbon fiber foil, and a more complicated, expensive rig and gear, not to mention electronics. The entry costs are much greater now. And for what? An incremental speed gain in light air?

The relatively, inexpensive new speedsters don't exist anymore. That fact that those boats are still competitive says something about where modern race design has gone.
I continue without understanding. An Olson, a Santa Cruz or a Hobbie were not in their time more expensive than a Jboat and a Jboat is not comparatively more expensive now than what it was 30 years ago.

There are plenty of new boat like that in Europe, they are not exported to the US because the market for that kind of boats in the US is very small.

Just some boats that go on that category: Surprise, A31, Salona 33, Elan 310, A27, seascape 27, Pogo 30, First 35, Malango 888, Django 7.6, Sunfast 32, JPK 998, Dehler 29....well I could continue to post boats... I find the situation amusing : Americans don't want or buy that kind of boats and then you complain that they don't exist on the market. For having a market it is necessary to have enough sailors wanting a given type of boat and does not count the ones that only buy used old boats.

Well James, that is mot happening on the US. The ones that want new boats want Hunters, Jeanneaus and Benetaus or Bavarias, even in what regards 30/33ft boats. They don't want fast boats with a less big or good interior and James, size for size, quality for quality fast boats were always more expensive than slower boats: You can see that comparing the Benetau with the First or the Cruising line of Elan with the performance line. The reasons are obvious.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 05-29-2013 at 03:37 PM.
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