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  #41  
Old 04-07-2010
Nick O'Kelly
 
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Thanks for the interest, but you'll have to google me

Thanks for the interest, but I don't think the moderators of this site would appreciate me selling books on their forum. I respect the rules and don't want to come off as a commercial jerk.

You can google me, "Nick O'Kelly." I am sure you'll find a link to me or the book out there somewhere.
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  #42  
Old 04-07-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
I think the turning point that first summer was actually going on a week long cruise, with destinations and an objective as opposed to bashing around the bay.
I think objectives are key. We "goal oriented" men seem all too ready to head out for whatever adventure might come. Ironic, and against stereotypical notions about men and women that having clearly-defined objectives makes our wives MORE comfortable with this sailing and cruising thing.

We tend to think that women are more risk averse than men. This is true, but not by a lot. Studies show that while we have a similar tolerance for risk, it is our respective tolerance for AMBIGUITY that shows the biggest difference. Men are much more comfortable with an unknown and unknowable future than women.

That's right guys: women are big-picture thinkers. More so than we are!
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  #43  
Old 04-07-2010
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It is also a universally recognized as a way of warning people of danger... when was the last time you heard someone WHISPER "FIRE".... no, there are appropriate times for yelling.... On a well-run and well-found boat, those times will be far and few between, but they will occur.

I'd point out that even on the best run boat, there will be things that the captain will have no way of anticipating or controlling. One of our fellow posters on this forum, who is very well regarded and a USCG captain, got run over by a powerboat through no fault of his own. I'd imagine there was some yelling then...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickokelly View Post
I agree with you Sailingdog. As captain, you must act quickly and decisively to keep people (then the boat) safe if danger is imminent. If that means yelling, you absolutely should and must. However, raising your voice (yelling) is universally recognized in interpersonal communication as a display of aggression or a loss of control. Either are going to make her feel uncomfortable on board the boat.
You can not say that every operation will be executed without drama and that a captain will always be in control... Sh!t happens...

Quote:
If the captain knows what he is doing, he won't have to yell. He'll be in control at all times (at or away from the helm), every action will be planned, and every operation will be executed without drama. No yelling required.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #44  
Old 04-08-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
It is also a universally recognized as a way of warning people of danger... when was the last time you heard someone WHISPER "FIRE".... no, there are appropriate times for yelling.... On a well-run and well-found boat, those times will be far and few between, but they will occur.

I'd point out that even on the best run boat, there will be things that the captain will have no way of anticipating or controlling. One of our fellow posters on this forum, who is very well regarded and a USCG captain, got run over by a powerboat through no fault of his own. I'd imagine there was some yelling then... ...
I have to take offense this. If the best run boat is run by a competent captain, the **** shouldn't happen. In the case of this captain, the #1 law of the sea is to avoid at all cost the situation to begin with and take immediate action. Who was on watch and why did either Captain allow the situation to get to this point to begin with? This question begs to be asked. Any Captain with any kind of seamanship will never allow this situation to developed. If I as a Captain of an airplane showed any of these traits I would be landlocked and lose of life would happen.


Quote:
You can not say that every operation will be executed without drama and that a captain will always be in control... Sh!t happens...
Sh!t happens because the captain lost control plain and simple. Seamanship, Seamanship Seamanship was lacking because he had no plan, he didn't anticipate, was out of his element and/or the boat was in a position that the captain put it in that it shouldn't be to begin with. Yelling is a result of insecurity from within oneself.

Sailing is a complex sport. Unlike a motorboat, it takes skill to sail a boat well. Knowledge gained through schools, experience, bar talk, practice, practice and what I believe too crucial a plan of action written down for most situations. This includes checklists. One thing I learned in both the military and Sailtime. Just going out and winging it puts all in danger. End result, yelling at least and injury at worst.
On crew coordination, unless you are fortunate enough to go through a CRM (crew resource management) classes, sailing with crews has been hit and miss with most boats I have been on.
I think I have seen most things as far as crew is concerned, especially since I am a retired military pilot and a commercial airline captain. Working as a harmonious crew is difficult at best. I have sailed OPB during my racing years. Lets just say there are some boats I won't join again while others I could not wait until the next race. Same thing with my flying crews. The one great thing the military did teach me was what it took to work as a crew. Most of it was discipline, attention to detail and always have a plan for the unexpected. I think the average sailor out there lacks some or all of the qualities. This whole thing about women not sailing or joining their respective spouses on an adventure has intrigued me the most. While I understand the women's POV, at times I wonder about what are true motives. But sailing is different than most endeavours. 99% of the population doesn't want to own or sail anything unless on a cruise with a drink in their hand while on a vacation in some exotic place.
To Nick, I have to fully agree with you on how a capt treats their guest or spouse. I always treat my guest as paying guest. It is their cruise not mine per se. I always have food and drinks to my guest likings. I always manage the boat to the lowest common denominator person on the boat.
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  #45  
Old 04-08-2010
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Very well said Melissa.

Listen to ATC recordings of "Captain Sully," as he was about to ditch his plane (US Airways flight 1549) in the Hudson River. 155 people aboard, $60M plane, and he had to know that commercial ditchings are almost always fatal. Any drama in his voice? None. Why? He knew exactly what to do, even when the absolute worst happened as the plane was "low and slow." Airline pilots are trained for this eventuality and tested, tested, tested-every six months, am I right on that?

Two problems with the way most men approach (pardon the pun) sailing with the hesitant or resistant or inexperienced wife:

1. They wing it (another pun, sorry) without the knowledge or expertise to handle the boat in expected conditions; or fail to anticipate conditions.

2. They don't consider the ramifications for others on board when they lose control or "sh!t happens." He'll recover from that botched jybe quickly. She may not forget it for a long time.

Either way, I think that it comes down to not taking responsibility for the boat and all on board. Here in the US, the only requirement to own and sail a boat are a healthy bank account and a beating heart.

Sailing along at 5 knots and making Cat III approach at 160 knots are two very different things, but the same principles you mention apply. Losing control is losing control. That accidental jybe or dipping the lee rail with inexperienced passengers may not result in a loss of life, but it can kill The Dream.

Again, well said.
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  #46  
Old 04-08-2010
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My five or six cents!

I read this with interest. I like a lot of what Nick says.

I think SD has a valid couple of points. First, **** really does happen. To the best of us. Never say never, because there but for the grace of [insert your higher power of choice here] go you and all that.

I also find myself agreeing about his perception of yelling having a place. That place is limited and an exception rather than the rule: in an emergency, in a moment of great urgency as an attention getter. There is a difference between yelling a warning or an urgent instruction, and yelling out of impatience or anger or frustration.

Huge difference. Huge huge huge.

I think most Wives can understand a "Look out!" type yell vs. a Poor Teacher/Frustrated Husband type yell.

My husband has a lot more experience than I do, but if he makes our trips together unpleasant by yelling or talking down to me, that daysail is gonna turn pretty damn hostile.

(and then I kick him off MY boat. My name is on the registration, bwah hah hah )

But if he yells because something needs my attention now, well, I get that. I might have occasion to yell too. When yelling is the exception, rather than a rule, it works far better as the attention getter it's supposed to be.

As it so happens, he's not a yeller, so if he raises his voice, I know something is amiss more than me not trimming the jib to his satisfaction.

One other observation that might have already been observed: I'd hope that anyone, man or woman, endeavoring to teach someone else would know that you don't have to literally yell to put someone off of you and the subject you're trying to teach. If you're not having a good time teaching, they won't have a good time learning. Be mindful of tone, expression, body language, yours and theirs.
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  #47  
Old 04-08-2010
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Nick & Mel,

Good posts.

Regarding the yelling, I think you are unwittingly painting yourselves into a corner with your categorical statements. It could be based on the assumption that all yelling has an undertone of anger or admonition. But that's not always the case. It could also be a question of syntax, i.e. are we talking about yelling or shouting, and is there a difference?

I would like to offer a counter point, based on real life experience: I have worked the mast in a solid 45 knots of wind and higher gusts, while sailing offshore with heavy seas and spray flying. At those wind speeds, the noise of the wind in the rigging, the water running past the boat, and the creak and groan at the gooseneck, is tremendous.

When you are tucking in a third reef in the dark of night, mistakes can be made that are well beyond the fault of any captain. I know I've made them as crew. In the instance I'm recalling, the captain of the vessel had to communicate a remedial action plan to me at the mast. And yelling/shouting at the top of his lungs was the only way he could do that -- I barely could hear him as it was.

Yelling like that does not reflect poorly on my captain. In fact, it showed his ability to understand the situation thoroughly, adapt to an unexpected glitch, devise a solution, and effectively communicate it for implementation in difficult circumstances.

So that's why I cringe at a categorical statement like what's being made here in this thread about yelling. Sometimes the extra volume is absolutely essential. You may never have experienced a circumstance where that was necessary, but I would urge you not to be so quick to judge others. Despite best preparations, even the best skippers can find themselves in uncharted waters. Sailing is a fluid environment.

But yes, yelling at your spouse or other crew under normal circumstances -- not good.
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  #48  
Old 04-08-2010
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Sorry Melrna—

I'm gonna have to call BullSh*t on this... There are instances, like Bubb2's boat getting run over by a Searay, or the accident in Buzzards Bay a few years back where a 60' powerboat killed people on a 35' sailboat, where it really doesn't matter what the captain did. Another case in point is the Clear Lake case, which hit the courts and the sailors were exonerated...

In all three of these cases, the damage, injuries and loss of life were clearly out of the hands of the captain or crew of the sailboat.

Go ahead, please explain how any captain would have fared any differently in any of these three specific cases.... What would you have done??? The facts of these three cases are pretty much undisputed and very well known.

While I agree that many captains will yell out of insecurity—there are plenty of good captains who do not normally yell, and if they are yelling, there is probably a damn good reason for it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
I have to take offense this. If the best run boat is run by a competent captain, the **** shouldn't happen. In the case of this captain, the #1 law of the sea is to avoid at all cost the situation to begin with and take immediate action. Who was on watch and why did either Captain allow the situation to get to this point to begin with? This question begs to be asked. Any Captain with any kind of seamanship will never allow this situation to developed. If I as a Captain of an airplane showed any of these traits I would be landlocked and lose of life would happen.

Sh!t happens because the captain lost control plain and simple. Seamanship, Seamanship Seamanship was lacking because he had no plan, he didn't anticipate, was out of his element and/or the boat was in a position that the captain put it in that it shouldn't be to begin with. Yelling is a result of insecurity from within oneself.

Sailing is a complex sport. Unlike a motorboat, it takes skill to sail a boat well. Knowledge gained through schools, experience, bar talk, practice, practice and what I believe too crucial a plan of action written down for most situations. This includes checklists. One thing I learned in both the military and Sailtime. Just going out and winging it puts all in danger. End result, yelling at least and injury at worst.
On crew coordination, unless you are fortunate enough to go through a CRM (crew resource management) classes, sailing with crews has been hit and miss with most boats I have been on.
I think I have seen most things as far as crew is concerned, especially since I am a retired military pilot and a commercial airline captain. Working as a harmonious crew is difficult at best. I have sailed OPB during my racing years. Lets just say there are some boats I won't join again while others I could not wait until the next race. Same thing with my flying crews. The one great thing the military did teach me was what it took to work as a crew. Most of it was discipline, attention to detail and always have a plan for the unexpected. I think the average sailor out there lacks some or all of the qualities. This whole thing about women not sailing or joining their respective spouses on an adventure has intrigued me the most. While I understand the women's POV, at times I wonder about what are true motives. But sailing is different than most endeavours. 99% of the population doesn't want to own or sail anything unless on a cruise with a drink in their hand while on a vacation in some exotic place.
To Nick, I have to fully agree with you on how a capt treats their guest or spouse. I always treat my guest as paying guest. It is their cruise not mine per se. I always have food and drinks to my guest likings. I always manage the boat to the lowest common denominator person on the boat.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
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Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by sailingdog; 04-08-2010 at 01:37 PM.
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  #49  
Old 04-08-2010
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[QUOTE=Melrna;590422]I have to take offense this. If the best run boat is run by a competent captain, the **** shouldn't happen. In the case of this captain, the #1 law of the sea is to avoid at all cost the situation to begin with and take immediate action. Who was on watch and why did either Captain allow the situation to get to this point to begin with? This question begs to be asked. Any Captain with any kind of seamanship will never allow this situation to developed. If I as a Captain of an airplane showed any of these traits I would be landlocked and lose of life would happen.

Wow - that is harsh, Mel. Do you know the story?

It can happen
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  #50  
Old 04-08-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daydreamer92 View Post
I read this with interest. I like a lot of what Nick says.

I think SD has a valid couple of points. First, **** really does happen. To the best of us. Never say never, because there but for the grace of [insert your higher power of choice here] go you and all that.

I also find myself agreeing about his perception of yelling having a place. That place is limited and an exception rather than the rule: in an emergency, in a moment of great urgency as an attention getter. There is a difference between yelling a warning or an urgent instruction, and yelling out of impatience or anger or frustration.

Huge difference. Huge huge huge.
I think most Wives can understand a "Look out!" type yell vs. a Poor Teacher/Frustrated Husband type yell.

My husband has a lot more experience than I do, but if he makes our trips together unpleasant by yelling or talking down to me, that daysail is gonna turn pretty damn hostile.
Very much my point... there are different kinds of yelling, and for very different reasons. Some are acceptable, some are not.


Quote:
(and then I kick him off MY boat. My name is on the registration, bwah hah hah )
LOL... that's perfect...

Quote:
But if he yells because something needs my attention now, well, I get that. I might have occasion to yell too. When yelling is the exception, rather than a rule, it works far better as the attention getter it's supposed to be.

As it so happens, he's not a yeller, so if he raises his voice, I know something is amiss more than me not trimming the jib to his satisfaction.
Again, exactly what I'm trying to point out...

Quote:
One other observation that might have already been observed: I'd hope that anyone, man or woman, endeavoring to teach someone else would know that you don't have to literally yell to put someone off of you and the subject you're trying to teach. If you're not having a good time teaching, they won't have a good time learning. Be mindful of tone, expression, body language, yours and theirs.
Very well said. Besides, I don't yell... I put little shock-inducing collars, like the dog training ones, on all the new crew and have a couple of remotes to zap them with when they're not behaving or listening properly.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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