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  #91  
Old 05-09-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think.

DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."

Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)

I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a bitch (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.

To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?

Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.

Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.
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  #92  
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

The existence of sexism isn't debatable. It's undisputable fact, like racism. But that doesn't say an individual is sexist or not. And sexism goes both ways. I don't like being stereotyped by my gender. But sexism is primarily aimed at women.

In the context of the OP, I again can't see how sailing would escape the effects of sexism. The title, which many women I know, would resent as stereotypical, is proof.
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  #93  
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Sexism most definitely exists. So does competition. Survival of the fittest is natural evolution or do we believe we can think that way? Big vs small, strong vs weak, dominant vs submissive. These apply woman to woman as well as man to woman. Its all too convenient and overgeneralized to suggest its all sexism. Every woman that I know that has made the same effort to learn to sail as I did, is at least as good at it. Those that haven't are not, and I'm having trouble attributing that simply to gender bias. Any man who has taken the back seat or made less effort is just as far behind the curve.

The book title is out of line.
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  #94  
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wind_magic View Post
I don't know. A few people have mentioned this thought of men being more understanding, accommodating, or helping women overcome sexism in some way, and I don't think men can be as big a part of that as some might think.

DeniseO wrote, "Many men thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues and don't coddle women or try to protect or fix things for them. These men, also often recognize this unique dynamic and don't step down or feel emasculated when she's trying to gain the skills that come so easily to males because she's not had the opportunities he has had."

Would a man ever write "Many women thankfully in recent years are aware of these issues" ? I don't think so, I think a man would just stick his thumb in your eye and tell you to pound sand, even the idea of wanting to be accepted for who you are and have the world be a more accommodating place is more of a feminine idea than it is masculine (traditionally)

I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?

DeniseO also wrote, "It's the simple fact the men take, push, lead, assume, direct, teach, advise across almost all areas of life, with impunity. When or if a woman steps out of the "mold" she's quickly set straight, told where she needs to be, called a bitch (often by other women) when the men are being called sir in the same position or situation." and I think that is a big part of it.

To that I would respond that as DeniseO also said, women are often the problem as much as men, but because of that I think it might be fair to say that women are ultimately the WHOLE problem, because is it really a man's responsibility to fix this ? Isn't that part of the problem, that a woman might wait for a man to fix everything ?

Even allowing a man to be in a position to decide that a woman will or won't be treated fairly is allowing him being in charge. Someone above (I forget who, and I paraphrase for effect) said that on his boat the women are encouraged to do this and that, to take the helm, etc ... isn't that the whole problem, no matter what she's doing, he's still the one in charge! He's still making the decisions, what if he woke up tomorrow and decided he didn't like how it was going and started making different decisions, or what if the man wasn't sexist 99.99% of the time but still was sexist the 0.01% of the time that it actually mattered ?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this except that I don't think a woman's problem is a man when it comes to sexism, no matter how she might be treated. They call it "taking charge" because it is TAKEN, not because it is given, and men who put themselves in charge don't wait around for it they just do it, it is as much about independence and daring as anything.

Zeehag, DeniseO, and others get respect here from men and women alike, that's a simple fact. They are independent people and I don't think any man here would believe for a moment that their strings are being pulled by anyone. No man gave them that right to be independent, I'm sure they just woke up one day and took it, the same as anyone in command of their own boat, and that's how it works no matter who you are.
You said it much better than I could.. Not to call out Denise, but when I read her post my first impression was that it highlighted the inherent differences between men and women.

Stereotypes exist because they have a basis in fact and reality. The problem arises when you discriminate against an individual because of general stereotypes. It does not mean the general stereotypes are not accurate.
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  #95  
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wind_magic View Post
I guess my point is, can you ever really win a traditionally man's game using traditionally women's rules ?
Show me a game where there's two sets of rules. The only possible example i can think of is golf, where there are two sets of tees, which doesn't mean shite if you can't putt.

Look, I get the whole big picture "take" vs. "give" argument, but why should one sex have to take what has been given to the other sex for free, simply for having a pulse, like the right to vote or equal pay for equal work?
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

There is not a woman among the 1100 people that work for me that isn't paid exactly what a male is paid for doing the same job, with the same experience.

There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc. A male in that job gets paid the same. In at least one case, its the same job, but she only works 4 days per week, so she gets 80% of the pay for the job.

Some of the comparisons are flawed. So, on average, the higher paying jobs probably have more men in them, but not at all exclusively. The women are paid the same, if they are doing the same job. In my last senior hire, I intentionally said it would be nice to have another woman on the team. Of the qualified applicants, they were 5 to 1, male. I hired a woman because she was the best of them. If she wasn't, I wouldn't have.

Anecdotally, we had a female that was the President of one of our subsidiaries. Men got along fine with her, but always watched their backs. Women hated her.

Want another? I know of a woman on a board of directors that fails to show up for most meetings. The only reason she hasn't been fired is because they are concerned over not finding another woman for the seat. True story.
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
Show me a game where there's two sets of rules. The only possible example i can think of is golf, where there are two sets of tees, which doesn't mean shite if you can't putt.

Look, I get the whole big picture "take" vs. "give" argument, but why should one sex have to take what has been given to the other sex for free, simply for having a pulse, like the right to vote or equal pay for equal work?
If the putting analogy were good, there wouldn't be a different set of tees.

I once played with a woman in my foursome that played from the white tees, like the three men. She won. If you can do the job, you get the creds. If you can't, it's not always because mommy and daddy put pink ribbons in your hair. Some people win, some lose and it just isn't always fair.
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Okay, so let's get back to sailing. Minnewaska, earlier you mention that it is no big deal for your wife to be on the bow handling the anchor, because you have a power windlass so there is no sexism in the roles...
...how about before you had a windlass- were you on the bow heaving and hauling, or were you stroking the throttle?
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post

There are many women that take lesser paying jobs because they have more flexibility to get kids off the bus, etc.
Which is a great example of sexism- why is it HER job to pick up the kids off the bus? Why does SHE have to take time off work? Even in households where incomes are equal, and where both parties have hour flexibility, it usual does fall to the wife to take time off to pick up the kids, etc.

It's our knee-jerk response to say "No,I'm not sexist, it's just...." - but we are. It may not be overt or intentional, but we are. I'm guilty of it. And i get called on it. It just strikes me that our nautical world is more accepting of sexism than the world at large, maybe because it is a predominantly male environment.
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bljones View Post
Okay, so let's get back to sailing. Minnewaska, earlier you mention that it is no big deal for your wife to be on the bow handling the anchor, because you have a power windlass so there is no sexism in the roles...
...how about before you had a windlass- were you on the bow heaving and hauling, or were you stroking the throttle?
In fact, it was me. My father made me do it. Since she's been around, we've always had a windlass.

Maybe he was kid-ist
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