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  #191  
Old 09-09-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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Originally Posted by Omatako View Post
My wife and I have sailed together for 4 decades. We have attended sailing schools over the years but never on the same course. The reason is simply we have different motives.

For example, I wanted to learn the finer points of celestial navigation (long before the wonders of GPS), she just wanted to learn the meaning of lights so that she would be more confident on a night watch. So we would go to the same school, different course. I would do an diesel engine course, she would do a cooking or victualing course. Is that gender discriminatory? No, I don't believe it is. We concentrate on what we're good at.

I don't subscribe to gender specific courses but I do support couples not being on the same course. Watching a stranger on a course shouting at my wife would be something to behold.
I agree with everything you are saying and it is how my wife and I split up classes. We then try to exchange the information so we can both have knowledge in the area if the other is indisposed. We also both take core courses as some info we both need.

Then there is the problem of watching someone yell at their own wife (or husband in a class). I teach many classes and one of the most consistent pieces of negative feedback has been when a couple has been enrolled and one or the other (or both) bickered at each other, or corrected each other constantly. My point is that couples often don't perceive how their interaction affects others, especially in the context of a instructional setting for the other students. I have had many students pull me aside, or put in formal feedback that the class would have been much more enjoyable if it wasn't for "that opinionated jerk" or that "nagging spouse". Of course I will mention that EVERYONE in this thread that has stated they have a great time taking classes with their SO would never do this so I am talking about others here! Just making a point that sometimes what we are used to as everyday interactions between SOs, is not always appropriate in a classroom setting. Sorry for the rant, but if you have seen this as the teacher it is hard to get folks to recognize it happening. For the record, it also seems most common that younger folks are more offended at the relationship behavior of older couples and that is again a generational thing.

Last edited by AlaskaMC; 09-09-2013 at 04:17 PM.
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  #192  
Old 09-11-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Imagine this...

There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?
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  #193  
Old 09-11-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Assuming both boats are equal, the boat that makes the least mistakes, sailed by the team with the most will, will win. Sex doesn't enter into it, in my mind.
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  #194  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

There is an all-female team racing in the Volvo 2014 and they just cleaned everyone's clocks around Fastnet in a prelim. I hope they win the Ocean Race.
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  #195  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
Imagine this...

There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?
Just the fact that you would notice that singular difference and ask the question is sexist.
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  #196  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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Originally Posted by Tim R. View Post
I would not consider sailing sexist as I do not feel women are purposely excluded from sailing.

Take two people. One man and one woman. Both have the exact same desire to sail. I feel both have the exact same opportunity to sail. There are no obvious exclusions for women.

Also consider the fact that men and women compete in regattas on equal terms. How many sports do that?
Amen... Not many sports allow for equal competition between men and women.

Baseball, no. Hockey, no. Tennis, no, Soccer, no. Gymnastics, no. Football, no. Rugby, no. Volleyball, no. Golf, no/sorf of? Basketball, no. Swimming, no.

Sailing, YES and Racecar driving, YES.....

I'm sure I missed a few...

I'd say sailing is one of the least sexist sports out there.

I work for a number of women boat owners who don't have a SO, nor care to at this point.

Maria owns a Grand Banks and she keeps it in tip top shape all while raising two young girls on her own. She got the boat she wanted and no one excluded her. She also joined the club she wanted and they welcomed her with open arms. (ok not a sailor now, but was)

Carol owns and sails a 36' cutter rigged CCA era boat with her young daughter. She sails it solo with her child 95% of the time. She is also in the "club" as a single woman.

Megan owns a 74' foot steel schooner she runs a charter business from. She physically built the boat with a friend and does all the maintenance herself with the help of her hired crew.

Sara, also single, races two nights per week in one design and PHRF. She also joined her club as a single women..

There are so many more and I don't feel Maine is unique in this regard... Compared to most other sports sailing is about the least "sexist" I can think of...

If you want to seek out and find sexism you can always find it. Heck my wife went to Simmons where they preach sexism to the point of it being their currency... It was so bad and disgusted her so much that to this day she has not made a single donation to them because of it....

My sister grew up in very conservative NH and never found racism until she went to a very, very, very liberal university where THEY, the administration, made issue of her skin color. She never had a single issue, that she can recall, growing up in almost all white NH, but as soon as she got to a much more culturally diverse university, there it was, racism, beating down her door...

They made issue of her skin color by constantly offering her extra tutoring or "we think you should join this "minority group" or that one." or special incentives for tuition based on race etc.. Race and her skin color was pointed out to her by her professors and the administration at every turn. Not by the students or her friends....

She finally got so infuriated that she marched herself down to the dean, without and appointment, and tore him a new ARSE HOLE.

"I am an American God dammit and my skin color has nothing to do with what I came her for. NOTHING !!!!!! NO, I don't need your special incentives or "extra help" because of the color of my skin. Go fuĘk yourself if you want to use me as your tool to meet your "quotas"!!"

With that she walked out.....

She then called my mother and told her she though she was just kicked out of college.... My mother listened to her story and told her she did the right thing.

The dean profusely apologized, including written letter of apology on behalf of the university. He also physically walked himself to her dorm room to apologize in-person. Still, despite my sister pointing out this egregious level of insulting racism, at a university, they never changed their policies on "special treatment" based on skin color....Go figure that the most racism my sister ever encountered in her life was from the people who profess the most not to be racist....


Sometimes sexism or racism, or any "ism", comes direct from the folks who claim the most not to be..... A thought anyway.....

Sorry for the rant.....
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 09-12-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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  #197  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Sometimes sexism or racism, or any "ism", comes direct from the folks who claim the most not to be.....
I had a teacher in grade school who often said, "A guilty conscious needs no accusing." She's been proven right countless of times in my life.
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  #198  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

More context.
If they were on my boat, the women are going to win in the light stuff, on average weighing less.
In heavy air the men will win because they on average weigh more and can get more meat on the rail and brute strength gets tacks and sail changes done faster in heavy stuff.

* not to say there aren't heavy strong women and light weak men, but this is averages.

In smaller boats like a Laser there is a DEFINITE windspeed vs. winning crew weight formula. The 90 pounder and the 220 pounder each have a windspeed they'll win in, given equal skills.

On boats where a significant portion of the crew function as mobile ballast or human substitutes for hydraulic winches, if a program can have their pick of people very few women would have the size and strength for a top level program at the grunt/ballast positions. Not that I do either..........just sayin

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
Imagine this...

There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?
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Last edited by Coquina; 09-12-2013 at 09:02 AM.
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  #199  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
Imagine this...

There are two boats. Each has a race proven race crew. Each crew member has competed at a comparable level as the other. On paper, there is no difference, except one. One boat is crewed by men, the other by women. Who wins? And why?
To me having the opportunity is less important than the outcome.

I don't know of a big-league race that Dawn Riley has won, but she has had the opportunity to race in the same races as male sailors. She's on my To Be Admired list because she did it, not because she won.
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  #200  
Old 09-12-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Mostly I think its how you parents raise you. I grew up working for my dad, as a mechanic, equipment operator, pick and shovel laborer, carpenter helper, janitor. And I'm not talking odd jobs. Heavy adult jobs when I was 12, 14, 16. He is an immigrant and looked on a first born son as a resourse, a commodity. Nurturing was not part of the equation but plenty of on the job training was.

My sister, by comparison, sat in the house and did nothing. My parents were sexist. very old fashioned. She had a lot of problems when she grew up because she was so coddled.

The point is - they made me into a jack of all trades who can figure stuff out .

I raised my 3 kids a lot nicer, but I certainly didn't coddle them. I let them do a lot of stuff, on their own. Unsupervised. I figured letting them make a few mistakes when they are young is the cheapest and quickest life training. Turns out those kids we never coddled ( now all grown up) are good sailors, they are fast strong, tough, handy and never complain and they can work and fix stuff.
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Last edited by Sal Paradise; 09-12-2013 at 03:51 PM.
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