Is Sailing Sexist? - Page 28 - SailNet Community
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post #271 of 359 Old 12-03-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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Maybe, but some of this stuff is just silly. The sexism I'm talking about is abuse of woman worldwide, and unfortunately here in the US(Maine is one of the worst offenders of this abuse). Murder rates, starvation, this evidence is all easy to find.

Women getting paid 75 to 80 cents to my dollar per hour. Few women in government and biz management, stuff like that. Also documented and easy to find.

Sailing sexism isn't all that bad, likely fighting the "mens club" attitude a lot of sports are dealing with. We can all help there, call the offender out(the offender is not always a man).

But when people come out and say sexism doesn't exist, at any level, or make fun of the concept(same thing), then how do we even begin to correct the first major atrocities I listed?

At best, we'll never correct these problems in the US if we deny they exist. At the worst, denial makes us complicit in the atrocities.

Sexism exists, that part is simple.

no matter what you do...what laws you pass...how much you preach, you will never rid the world of buttholes. racism is stupid but there will always be someone to hate someone else because of race. it's not just whites, either. there are asian racists, latino racists...heck, many black racists think they are justified because they claim minorities can't be racist.

it's kind of like homosexuality and gay marriage. everyone has their own opinion about that and no matter how the homosexual community tries, they will never force everyone to accept their way of life. but that doesn't really matter as long as they are allowed to live their lives as they choose.

you will always have some sexist people. it's not just men, either. i have known some seriously sexist women. in fact, as far as the entertainment industry is concerned, 'reverse sexism' is fine. there are tons of examples in movies and TV ( and female comedians ) of sexist, stereotypical attitudes towards men...stuff that would never be permitted if it was te other way around. and it's ok for women, out on the town, to wolf whistle and yell at guys but a guy who does it is a sexist pig. it's terrible for guys to go to strip clubs and strippers are supposedly being objectified and degraded by their jobs. yet, women go to strip clubs, to watch men strip, and that's ok. in fact, it is my understanding that women are much raunchier at strip clubs than men...and that's ok, too.

it's not a matter of changing everyone's attitude so that it meets with a cetain accepted criteria. that's the thought police. it's a matter of being limited or outcast because of gender. and i don't see that happening in the sailing community.

has anyone actually heard of a sailboat dealer or manufacturer refusing to sell to a woman because of her gender? are there any men's only sailing events? i am not aware of any in the US. there are, however, women's only sailing events. that's sexist, if you come down to it. and, while there may be some sexist buttholes, most of the guys i have known think it's cool for women to sail. the same holds true in the biker community. i can't think of anything i have seen, in the sailing community, that limits women's access to sailing or tries to push them out.

so, if the issue is 'is sailing sexist?' then the answer is absolutely not. if the question is ' are there any buttholes in the sailing community?'...well, that's another story. there will always be buttholes. some of the most PC people i have met are also the biggest buttholes.

the trouble is, if someone is not in a 'protected' group, then they are fair game. you can't say anything about someone's race ( unless they are white ), gender ( as long as that gender is female ), or sexual preference and you can't say sanything about mentally challenged or handicapped people. but you can say anything you want to about fat people. although the majority of Americans are overweight, we just love to pick on, insult, harrass, and poke fun at overweight people....and that's ok, too, because they aren't a 'protected' group. no one cares if you screw with fat people. and it's ok to mess with blondes, too. although, since only one ethnic group produces blondes ( naturally ), i think that is really a bit racist.

if you ask me, the whole PC thing isn't fair. it just determines who it is ok to be a butthole to. instead of protecting certain 'special' groups, perhaps we should just try to get people to stop acting like buttheads...teach respect for everyone, not just certain groups.
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post #272 of 359 Old 12-03-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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Originally Posted by TomMaine View Post
Yes, Sal, but the OP finished with, "does sexism exist in sailing?"

And I say the OP was answered immediately, affirmative; both by those that recognize sexism exists in our society/therefore-sailing, and by those that said sexism doesn't exist in sailing.

My point is the latter answer, denial of sexism(that's not possible due to evidence to the contrary), keeps sexism alive and well, while proving it's existence.

Someone asked what are we doing to eliminate sexism in sailing? I'm calling out denial, on any level, as the enemy to eliminating sexism, world wide, and in sailing.
so, let me see if i understand you. if you say something is not sexist, because you have not seen evidence that it is sexist, then you are sexist?
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post #273 of 359 Old 12-03-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

We need more men to say sexism doesn't exist.
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post #274 of 359 Old 12-03-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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so, let me see if i understand you. if you say something is not sexist, because you have not seen evidence that it is sexist, then you are sexist?
Good question. We'd need some data to prove my point, or yours.

If we could get; # of women owning boats, racing, racing as captains, racing professionally $, running their own racing campaign, members of yacht-boat clubs, in high positions in boating organizations.

Then maybe in the marine industry, number of women building boats, managing building boats, running sailing oriented businesses, running marinas, fixing boats, women that manage marine businesses, female charter captains.

Instruction, # of women that teach sailing instruction, riggers, sailmakers, that's enough to get a sense of any gender gap sailing.

If we find these stats show a reasonable ratio of women compared to men in those groups, say 30-40%(they are half the population), then I guess you're right. Then I will admit there isn't any sexism in sailing.

But if we find a mere fraction of these spots in the sailing world are filled by women, how do we explain that?

Can we then say there is no sexism in sailing, because some don't see it?

Tom Young sailing a 1961 38' Alden Challenger, CHRISTMAS out of
Rockport, Maine.
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post #275 of 359 Old 12-03-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Personally I think sexism exists throughout society and in sailing. However, where it all gets a little confusing for me is whether or not you can assume that the fact that only 10% of the people in a given role (like rigger for example) are women is the result of sexism.

I work in the IT industry and have for 25 years now. It's heavily male dominated even though some notable pioneers were women. There were quite a few women in my college level courses (though definitely not 50%) and I had a number of female colleagues over the first 10 years of my career but fewer and fewer since.

The first software developer I ever hired to work for me was a woman. That was over 15 years ago. The last time I tried to fill a developer position 6 months ago, there were exactly 0 female applicants.

So is that fact that we have no female developers in our organization due to sexism or something else? Now, I'm sure sexism plays a role but I have to think a large part of it is just the choice on the part of women not to pursue that kind of career.

Are there some woman who'd like to go into software development but don't because they'd feel out of place or unwelcome? Probably. Is there some sort of subconscious gender training that steers women away from that kind of work? Probably. Are these the only reasons? I don't think so.

Last edited by unimacs; 12-03-2013 at 10:14 PM.
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post #276 of 359 Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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Originally Posted by TomMaine View Post
Good question. We'd need some data to prove my point, or yours.

If we could get; # of women owning boats, racing, racing as captains, racing professionally $, running their own racing campaign, members of yacht-boat clubs, in high positions in boating organizations.

Then maybe in the marine industry, number of women building boats, managing building boats, running sailing oriented businesses, running marinas, fixing boats, women that manage marine businesses, female charter captains.

Instruction, # of women that teach sailing instruction, riggers, sailmakers, that's enough to get a sense of any gender gap sailing.

If we find these stats show a reasonable ratio of women compared to men in those groups, say 30-40%(they are half the population), then I guess you're right. Then I will admit there isn't any sexism in sailing.

But if we find a mere fraction of these spots in the sailing world are filled by women, how do we explain that?

Can we then say there is no sexism in sailing, because some don't see it?
A woman owns the marina where i keep my boat.

i think the flaw in yoour logic is that, if at least 30% to 40% of the participants of a given activity aren't women, then that activity must be sexist. that means that any activity must have a 60/40 to 70/30 gender mix or it is sexist.

that would mean that quilting circles are hideously sexist.

of course, that is unless you are sexist and only apply your rules in favor of women.

the truth is, certain activities appeal to certain groups more than other groups. it's like motorcycles. every male biker i know thinks chicks that own their own bikes are cool. i think it's not only cool but very useful. if only the husband rides, you have to stop taking bike trips, once kids start arriving. if both partners ride you can have up to 2 kids and still get to take bike trips.

however, many women love to ride on the back of a guy's bike but a much smaller number want to ride their own bike. that number has increased but i'm willing to bet all the money in my wallet it's not a 60/40 mix.

does that mean that motorcycle riding is sexist? no. it means a lot more women want to be passengers than drivers, on motorcycles.

all the girlfriends i have had, since i began sailing, have loved it. guess how many have continued sailing since we broke up? none of them. is that sexist? not unless you think the cure for such 'sexism' is to go out and force the needed percentage of the female population to take up these activities, even if it's against their will.

" i don't care what you want to do. you will become a sailor. because it's not about your free will. it's about sexism. and i'm willing to deny women freedom if it means eradicating sexism."

or, perhaps if an activity does not appeal to a 60/40 mix of the population, based on gender, it should be outlawed so no one can participate in it. of course, that spells doom to quilters.

and what about all the women's magazines? or the men's health magazines? are they sexist, since they only appeal to one gender or the other? perhaps all gender specific magazines should be banned, too.

is that how it has to be for something not to be sexist? or is it equal opportunity to pursue an activity, rather than equal numbers, that decide if something is sexist or not?

The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do.---Captain Jack Sparrow


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post #277 of 359 Old 12-17-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

"Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science."

I hate to burst your little male bubble, but this statement just isn't true any more. Many schools of architecture are more than 50% female, and the trend is quickly heading that way in many of the engineering fields as well. Actually, the women are outperforming men in math in many areas.

Jeff ... a 67 year old architect
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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...
I hate to burst your little male bubble, but this statement just isn't true any more. Many schools of architecture are more than 50% female, and the trend is quickly heading that way in many of the engineering fields as well. Actually, the women are outperforming men in math in many areas.

Jeff ... a 67 year old architect
I've heard this as well. Not specifically for the architectural field, but the decades-long push to get more women into math and science has resulted in more women going into math and science with the men/boys numbers falling behind.

Donna


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post #279 of 359 Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

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I've heard this as well. Not specifically for the architectural field, but the decades-long push to get more women into math and science has resulted in more women going into math and science with the men/boys numbers falling behind.
I believe the number of girls is rising, but there is still has a long way to go. At a recent high school robotics competition I counted 10 girls out of 40 team leaders, and of the top 24 teams my daughter was the only girl. I couldn't count all the kids, but it seemed like it was less than 1/4 girls.

Girls make up about half of the math and science classes in the high school, but my daughter is the only girl in her engineering/tech class.

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post #280 of 359 Old 12-18-2013
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Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

[quote=jmessick;1226985
I hate to burst your little male bubble, but this statement just isn't true any more. Many schools of architecture are more than 50% female, and the trend is quickly heading that way in many of the engineering fields as well. Actually, the women are outperforming men in math in many areas.

Jeff ... a 67 year old architect[/quote]


Nope. Its mostly guys. I graduated architecture school 20 odd years ago and then it was mostly guys... did a tour of a bunch of architecture schools last year with my son , almost all boys in our groups..... kid ended up in engineering (yaa!) ,again mostly guys. Not that he is happy about that fact,quite the reverse. BTW - little advice here; keep your kid out of architecture, its a terrible field.

We have 3 architects and one assistant architect in my firm. All the architects are men. The assistant is a woman. I am her official NCARB mentor and I actually recruited her. Unfortunately, she way is too scared of making mistakes and too reluctant to take responsibility for the building design and she has decided on her own ( to my dismay) to never pursue her license and just assist.

As for motorcycling, of which I am also a member - its almost all guys. I bought my wife her own motorcycle years ago and she rode my bikes too. When she was young she was a halfway decent rider but as she got older she became, in her own words, too scared. Its okay.

Motorcycling is almost all guys. Most guys, myself included , love riding with momen. They give a great perspective. Difference is you don't hear many women complaining about the overwhelming number of guys. My guess is the women motorcyclists are a bit more adventurous and have learned to enjoy it.


Sal Paradise, Registered Architect

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Senior Researcher - Dunning Kruger

Last edited by Sal Paradise; 12-18-2013 at 10:22 AM.
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