Is Sailing Sexist? - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > herSailNet
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree229Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 04-19-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,866
Thanks: 6
Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 10
nolatom will become famous soon enough
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Not sexist. Racing is one of those sports where women regularly beat men, at least in boats requiring maximum brains and medium or less brawn. Sprinkle of few teams of the best of both genders into, say, Shieldses on a nice day, and see what happens.

Cruising, I suppose, since it required boat ownership et al, may have favored men since they were historically the ones more able to afford the money and time than women. The commercial waterfront has been mostly male since forever, the recreational waterfront less so. But that's much more about "traditional" gender roles than about sailing.

Women now have almost four decades' experience in the Naval, Coast Guard, and Merchant Marine academies too, and now occupy captain's quarters on more than a few vessels.

Some of this may take more time, but racing I think is almost at gender-neutrality, and could get there soon if designers want to reduce a bit of the upper-body strength and crew weight/leverage numbers on some of the winch-farm racers or screaming dinghies..
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 04-19-2013
jameswilson29's Avatar
Senior Smart Aleck
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 2,066
Thanks: 28
Thanked 66 Times in 61 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jameswilson29 is on a distinguished road
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
Women now have almost four decades' experience... and now occupy captain's quarters on more than a few vessels..
Well, I suppose they could be there for any number of reasons...
Minnesail likes this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 04-19-2013
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,166
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

No I don't think sailing is sexist but I love the sexist comment of the guy that comments the book:

"If you've just bought a boat or are considering a boat purchase, this is a good place for new boaters of both sexes to start.

Just get past the cover."


__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 04-19-2013
johnnyandjebus's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario
Posts: 424
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
johnnyandjebus is on a distinguished road
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

I have no idea if sailing is sexist, no - I really do, it is not. As all ready mentioned, people are sexist not activities. With that said my berth, in my marina, gives a excellent view of the gas dock. I have seen plenty of men guiding their boats into the dock screaming out orders and generally acting like a horse's a@s, aggressive, frustrated, demanding etc. In most of these cases the docking doesn't end well. I have yet to see a boat enter the gas dock under less than full control when skippered by a woman. Maybe it is because the male, first mate, has learned his place, not sure.
On a completely different note; I spent last summer and this spring over-hauling my boat, blisters/new barrier coat, deck-rot/re-painting etc. The local boat fibreglass repair business has a younger female on staff, who really knows her stuff. I have had the opportunity to chat her up given the amount of time she spends at the marina. I have come to look foreword to her advice from a pro to a novice, that I am. She has plenty of stories about customers who treat her like the office secretary, not the technical on-staff expert that she is. Both male and female customers hold that view point of her. Get over it already, is all I can say...

John
__________________
"The more I know about people, the better I like my dog."
-- Mark Twain

"If you canít explain it to a six year old, you donít understand it yourself.Ē
--Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 04-25-2013
sparrow16's Avatar
Sparrow Girl
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: N. Idaho, USA
Posts: 14
Thanks: 8
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
sparrow16 is on a distinguished road
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Sigh.

At the risk of coming off as confrontational I must comment on your post.

To start with, I don't think you are being mean-spirited and I'm guessing you really must think this to be true. However, what I ask is that you please do not fall into the trap in thinking that just because things have been a certain way in the past that it will always be that way in the future or that the explanations given in the past are still true or automatically valid for all time.

For myself, I have a Ph.D. in physics and know many women who have similar professional abilities (mathematics, spatial reasoning, science, engineering). I also know many who have been actively discouraged from similar pursuits by men (and women) because it was not deemed "appropriate" for a girl/woman.

As for sailing I have observed many women who sail with men who are in charge. Then there are those women who I suspect let the men take charge because of old habits, social pressures and cultural norms they have internalized, not because they cannot do it. I wonder how many men do not let their wives be in charge because they fear that their male buddies would make fun of them?

Christine


Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
Men and women have genetically-determined differences (pretty obvious) based on evolutionary roles, even in the way their brains work.

On average, men have greater natural mechanical and spatial relations ability than women do. In the prehistoric hunter-gatherer phase of evolution, men were programmed to be the hunters and women were programmed to be the gatherers. Hunting requires different skills from gathering, and vice versa.

Although either of the sexes are free to choose their educational direction and occupations in the free industrialized world, there remains a much greater proportion of men in engineering, math, architecture, the physical sciences, mechanics, construction, and computer science.

Many believe that natural abilities create needs to express those abilities.

Very few occupations today satisfy those needs resulting from our evolutionary abilities; most people in the workforce no longer use their hands to create things.

Consequently, men gravitate toward activities, hobbies and sports involving construction, the mechanics of how things work, and moving through three dimensional space, such as sailing. Sailing satisfies basic needs and challenges basic abilities that proportionately more men than women possess. Therefore more men are interested in and involved in sailing.

The same is true for automobile racing and a number of other pastimes.

Sorry, that is the way the world is. You are only surprised by this if you choose to believe the nonsense that everyone is the same at birth and its only environment and conditioning that determine who we become.
JulieMor and AD 2 like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to sparrow16 For This Useful Post:
AD 2 (08-20-2013)
  #36  
Old 04-25-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,998
Thanks: 5
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Rep Power: 11
wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about wind_magic has a spectacular aura about
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrna View Post
As discussed to ad-nausea on most boats there are pink and blue duties.
As much as I would like to think this isn't in our DNA ...

A local Subway sandwich shop just hired a bunch of new young people for the spring/summer season and I overheard two conversations there about work assignments. It only took a week before the young men were washing dishes, cleaning bathrooms, and taking trash out and the young women were working the cash registers and interacting with customers. Does it have to be that way ? I'd like to believe it doesn't, but I'm not so sure.
__________________
What are you pretending not to know ?

Please support my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 04-25-2013
jameswilson29's Avatar
Senior Smart Aleck
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Richmond, Virginia
Posts: 2,066
Thanks: 28
Thanked 66 Times in 61 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jameswilson29 is on a distinguished road
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrow16 View Post
Sigh.

At the risk of coming off as confrontational I must comment on your post.

To start with, I don't think you are being mean-spirited and I'm guessing you really must think this to be true.
This has been repeatedly proven by science. If you doubt it, read this book, which summarizes the science behind these differences: "Taking Sex Differences Seriously" by Steven Rhoads: [QUOTE=sparrow16;1021142]

As much as you do not want to believe it, hormones and chemicals determined by genetics can alter behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrow16 View Post
. I also know many who have been actively discouraged from similar pursuits by men (and women) because it was not deemed "appropriate" for a girl/woman.
You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrow16 View Post
As for sailing I have observed many women who sail with men who are in charge. Then there are those women who I suspect let the men take charge because of old habits, social pressures and cultural norms they have internalized, not because they cannot do it.
Christine
You will never get what you want out of life if you are passive and allow others to determine your destiny.

Take charge of your life, Christine, and stop waiting for the approval of others! You can do it!
LinekinBayCD likes this.

Last edited by jameswilson29; 04-25-2013 at 08:52 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 04-25-2013
Sal Paradise's Avatar
Captain Obvious
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: New York
Posts: 728
Thanks: 13
Thanked 22 Times in 22 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Sal Paradise is on a distinguished road
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

You can't make the point that the sailing world isn't sexist by ranting at and lecturing women sailors. Almost as funny as lecturing a PhD about science.
emcentar and -OvO- like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 04-26-2013
sparrow16's Avatar
Sparrow Girl
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: N. Idaho, USA
Posts: 14
Thanks: 8
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 0
sparrow16 is on a distinguished road
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

[quote=jameswilson29;1021188]This has been repeatedly proven by science. If you doubt it, read this book, which summarizes the science behind these differences: "Taking Sex Differences Seriously" by Steven Rhoads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrow16 View Post

As much as you do not want to believe it, hormones and chemicals determined by genetics can alter behavior.

You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.

You will never get what you want out of life if you are passive and allow others to determine your destiny.

Take charge of your life, Christine, and stop waiting for the approval of others! You can do it!
Note: This post not so much for James' benefit, he seems convinced of his argument (LOL), but rather for all of the other women and men out there who do not think biology is the only factor that determines our fates:

James,

I'm not waiting for your approval, as I indicated before, I own my own sailboat and I have my Ph.D. in physics so I think I'm doing fine being my own woman.

I speak from experience and from talking with other women. There are differences in the sexes but the social pressures to which women are subjected along with the expectations made of them from them from the day they are born are also very real and cannot be dismissed as unimportant. This is the flaw in your argument; you attribute all the differences to biology (i.e. nature) and ignore nurture.

The combined effects of both nature and nurture applies to men too but the difference is that women are generally encouraged to not be as extroverted as men. These social pressures skew the behavior and expectations of both men and women. Attributing all differences to biology is sexist.

Now, perhaps if we were to remove the effect of the negative social pressures women (and men) have endured we might still find more men in sailing and owning a sailboat. I would contend that this difference would be less than it is now. Fortunately, things seem to be changing for the better with more women sailing. To say it is all to do with biology is wrong.

With that I'm finished with this.

Fair Winds to All (and James too! )

Christine
-OvO- and Minnesail like this.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 04-27-2013
northoceanbeach's Avatar
first sailed january 2008
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,383
Thanks: 16
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 7
northoceanbeach is on a distinguished road
Re: Is Sailing Sexist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post


You use a perfect example of the difference between the average woman and the average man: most men do not let others determine their destiny or career choices. They pursue what they want with determination, without seeking support or encouragement from the "village" - a classic difference between a hunter and a gatherer. Most men don't care whether others think their choices are "appropriate". That is why we speak our minds on the forums and most women are so concerned about offending others.
I agree with James. I am a male, I am a sailor. No one got me into sailing, no one took me out as a kid, bought me my first boat, gave me lessons. I choose to do it, actually, it can be hard. I think most people don't realize how important it is to me, but it is, and I am working hard to make it my reality.

IMO, an American woman could do the same, and I think in some ways it might be easier. More people might be willing to help, to take her out sailing. Not that people haven't been more than helpful and friendly to me, but I'm sure if I was a woman I could do the same.

I see some female sailors, but the numbers aren't close. Just not as many with the drive, and I believe that it is in our DNA, something in men that makes them driven to explore, where women are more likely to "nest".

The book serves a purpose. There are wives and girlfriends going along, with less knowledge. If and when I take a woman out on my boat, I will have to teach her to sail, I have done it before and I will do it again. It's just the way it is, they're just not out there pushing me further, teaching me to be better. How many woman were taught by a man? 90%? Maybe higher. So the book is to help the female first mate.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2006 US National Sailing Team Named - US SAILING News @ ISAF - Sailing.org NewsReader News Feeds 0 04-20-2006 07:18 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:35 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.