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Is Sailing Sexist?

57K views 358 replies 90 participants last post by  wmartin78758 
#1 ·
I just reviewed a book with a title that made me think- Joy Smith's "The Perfect First Mate- A Woman's Guide to Recreational Boating"

Dock Six Chronicles: Book Reviewsday Tuesday: Bad Title, Better Book

I thought the book had some great information, but the title kind of stuck in my craw: Why not title it "The Perfect Boat Owner"? I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?
 
#210 ·
As a female sailor, I have found that I am only able to command a pink or purple vessel. If I'm on a boat that is of any other color, I get distracted, indecisive, randomly toss things overboard and require male direction. Otherwise I will just sit down below and either iron or churn butter.

Damn these ovaries....


Seriously though, I get better treatment from male sailors. I single hand my boat and generally get a thumbs up from other male sailors. Female sailors usually give me the stink eye or pretend I don't exist.
I'm kind of shy plus I don't have an overwhelming need to socialize so eff someone like that.

I'm proud of what I can do. I don't need anyone else's approval.
 
#211 · (Edited)
Went sailing with my 5 year old daughter today. We were tacking up past an island when she yells out "Come on Dad, go fast like Mom does". I don't think she thinks sailing is sexist. In fact, I think she doesn't know what that means yet. Good for her!

She was great today in fact. She helped me do everything and even ran the tiller for a couple miles on the way home (with my hand poised if needed.) What a great day!
 
#219 ·
< smile > all in fun. I was the guy that made the comment about how boats are always referred to as she, and my next boat was gonna be named Ralph. Well after the discussion I am inclined to go with tradition held since the dawn of sailing and hence forth my vessels will always be referred to as she, and spoiled like we men spoil all our women.

God bless you ladies, one and all with your beautiful bellowing sails that we men enjoy so very much.........<smile>
 
#220 ·
I had learned that boats were called "she" because they carry, protect and then deliver the crew (or cargo) like a mother does her child.

Since we sailors are generally a suspicious group, and that it's know the name you give your boat affects the "personality", I'm not sure Ralph would be a good name.
First, a male boat may run around trying to "hook up" with every female boat willing to give him the time of day.
Second, a boat name Ralph may just "shoot your eye out" (Christmas Story) and spend too much money on Ovaltine.
 
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#221 ·
she, because they carry protect and deliver the crew.....hum..I like that .

But while "she" is doing all that Ralph is keeping her from harm by caring cleaning and keeping her off shoals, navigating bars etc. Poor Ralph does all the hard stuff but no credit. When she skillfully crosses a nasty bar onlookers amply praise her, when she cuts a picture perfect profile against the sea onlookers again give her praise. No one ever says, look there goes ralph, dosent he look grand!....poor poor Ralph

personally I like the she thing, I have no desire to sail in a "he", do you?
 
#224 ·
While this thread has been meandering, my wife has gradually been turning into a pretty good sailor. This gives me a lot of hope. Didn't take an all female training program, or a marriage counselor. Just time, patience and a few perfect days. She just has/ had a bit more fear and less strength. But as she herself said - where I go, she goes. Not only is her fear less and less, but the work ethic and speed with which the work is done has improved at an amazing rate. What it really took was again endless patience, and letting her come to her own realizations about what needs to be done and how to do it.
 
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#225 ·
I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.

My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.

 
#226 ·
I find the context in which some men refer to their wives as "The Admiral" to be sexist. I'd never heard that term for a wife before reading it here on almost a daily basis. To me, it sounds like giving the wife an important title to make her feel good, but really saying she's not good for much at all.

My wife is the co-owner of our boat, and she's just as likely to be at the helm as me.
Ahhhh. That's a can of worms ye've cracked open. :) I totally agree. A few other women I know totally agree. On the other hand, there are more women who think there's nothing wrong with it and then the argument from the men is that "admiral" is a higher rank than "captain."

I think that's a summary of this particular circle that we've gone around in this forum.
 
#232 ·
I see it as corny and dumb, not derogatory. Sounds like something old people say.

Some people really truly like to be told what to do. They want their spouse to make the decisions and they go along. Nothing terrible about that. Its not for my wife and me its the way some people are. And statistically, 50% of those people who want to be told what to do -- are male. So maybe thats where the admiral thing comes from some times.
 
#249 · (Edited)
Whew just got through this thread.

First I think the thread should be "How Sexist is Sailing."

And like many similar (ism) topics, the people defending that it isn't, tend to come off as if they are defending if they are or are not.

If a man and a woman go to buy a boat and when the salesperson comes up, the woman says: "We want to buy a boat" (or even if she says "I want to buy a boat.") if the salesperson is male, he will likely still talk to the man. But the same would be true if she wanted to buy a car.

We live in world with a large degree of a sexism.

If there isn't some sexism, then why do the ads in magazines (and the magazines themselves) mostly put the men in power positions and women in bikinis... (Speaking of which, are their any threads on Sailnet where a woman posted a picture of a man with kittens in his pants?)

The book that started the conversation... My guess the title (and the picture) was from the publisher and it was believed that the title --- sexist or not --- would move copies.

...all that said, I would prefer to see a discussion of sexism (all isms) with people not defending if they are a sexist, but by showing what they are doing to eliminate or prevent it

not in pants, but in a boat

 
#243 · (Edited)
how so? do they do things to deter or otherwise keep men from sailing?

Ironic isn't it
ironic that i would assume sexist aganst women? not really considering that women are the only ones that complain about sexism even though there are frequently elements in society that are sexist towards men. ironic that it could go the other way? yeah. i suppose. is there another possible irony that i didn't see?

man. what is up with my 'h' key? i have to keep editing to put 'h's back in.
 
#241 ·
Sailing exists within the context of the larger society. Like it or not, gender is a factor that sometimes steers us towards or discourages us from participating in certain activities.

For other activities, people of different genders participate more or less equally.

There are lots of hats that can be worn when it comes to sailing. Some of those hats are worn less often by women. In some cases, it could be that they are actively discouraged from wearing them. In other cases, it may be that for whatever reason women as a group are just less interested than men but the women that do want to wear those hats don't have to overcome any barriers to do so. And there are lots of areas that fall somewhere in between.

I think from a legal standpoint a lot has been done to open doors that were previously closed to women, or at least difficult to walk through. Attitudes don't change as easily as laws though. We don't treat men and women exactly the same, and I'm not sure that is really the ideal anyway. Everyone should have the same opportunities however, and whatever characteristics we initially judge a person on, we should be prepared for the fact that we may be wrong.
 
#242 ·
I've been in a lot of sports and careers that are male dominated so these things can't bother you or you'll constantly be annoyed and I have enough of that when I'm driving. At least it appears to me that sexism continues to lessen and parity between partners is more commonly accepted these days. Recently, I was cleaning some lines on my boat leaving the Alameda Estuary and a (male) friend was driving. The Coast Guard pulled us over for a regular safety check and called out "captain," which they directed to him. My friend points to me. That was cool. I suspect they would have called me captain had I been driving, but that's just idle curiosity so see if my theory holds. There was, however, a young girl manning this HUGE gun on the front of their boat. Probably every guy she encountered that day had to bite their tongues not to make a joke. I asked my friend and he certainly did...so it does continue.
 
#245 ·
You made the assumption that the sailors Mattt was talking about were men.
That in itself points to the whole problem, sailing isn't sexist, men are.
Even the ones who try not to be have been programmed by society to think that way.

It's a hard habit to break isn't it? My wife reminds me quite often.
 
#246 · (Edited)
You made the assumption that the sailors Mattt was talking about were men.
That in itself points to the whole problem, sailing isn't sexist, men are.
Even the ones who try not to be have been programmed by society to think that way.

It's a hard habit to break isn't it? My wife reminds me quite often.
yeah. but you stating that ' sailing isn't sexist, men are' is also sexist. a non sexist statement would have been to say that people ( not men ) are sexist.

i assumed that the sailors in question were men because that was the idea behind this thread: sailing is sexist against women. thus, male sailors are sexist. this thread wasn't about women being sexist and, indeed, even the article which talked about female sailor's sexist behavior towards male sailors did not acknowledge that the behavior was sexist, just that it was justified and to be applauded. i didn't make that assumption because of some personal prediliction. in fact, if anything, my assumption that it was men being accused of sexist behavior was sexist against men.
 
#257 ·
I put it to the ladies of Sailnet- is this lifestyle of ours as sexist as I think?
Absolutely.

Example: I am the skipper of our boat, but almost invariably when conversation initiates with strangers on dock or at yacht club, males will speak to my husband about boat as though I'm not even standing there. I know I'm not pretty, but I don't think it's just that. Husband has noticed it too and will generally steer the stranger towards me for boat discussion which elicits surprised responses.

Other examples are rife within almost all Internet sailing fora. Observe the patronizing attitudes towards the "first mate" or "admiral," "blue jobs/pink jobs," etcetera.

To me, it seems that racing sailors and dinghy/small multihull sailors are less chauvinist, though
 
#260 · (Edited)
Absolutely.

Example: I am the skipper of our boat, but almost invariably when conversation initiates with strangers on dock or at yacht club, males will speak to my husband about boat as though I'm not even standing there. I know I'm not pretty, but I don't think it's just that. Husband has noticed it too and will generally steer the stranger towards me for boat discussion which elicits surprised responses.
not sure that is due to sexism or your appearance. the truth is, most women are not sailors ( on their own, without the hubby being the driving force in the group interest in sailing ). that is changing but it is true. so, most men just assume it's the man, in the couple, who had the real interest, and they assume the wife is just partaking in his interest.

good example from experience:

i am a gearhead. i never considered myself one, but i have been forced to realize that i am. i build my own bikes, fabricating my own parts, so i can't deny it. i treat everyone i meet with the same respect and consideration. i was raised to give everyone the chance to prove themselves so i do. i don't judge a person by my interactions with any other person. so, if you talk to me, and mechanical stuff ( especially bikes ) comes up, i am not going to treat you like a child. i will discuss it with you. same with sailing, weapons, metal smithing....anything i know about, really. if it comes up, i will discuss it with you.

now, there are some really cool chicks who dig motyorcycles and can work on their own bikes. like sailor women ( also cool and very desirable ), they are hard to find and, when you find them, they are usually already taken.

so, 99% of the time, if the conversation goes to motorcycles, or anything mechanical, it's not long before the woman, i am speaking to, is looking at me with a blank face....as if i was talking in an alien tongue from a far off planet. ( now, to be fair, men, these days, aren't what they used to be. so, if i talk about mechanical things with a guy, now, i have about a 50% chance of meeting with a blank stare, to some degree. still, it's a safer bet that any guy you meet will be more likely to have mechanical knowledge than any woman you meet. it is changing but i'm not so sure if it's because more women are taking these things up or because more men are not taking them up. where most guys worked on cars or sailed or something like that, in the past, many younger guys are just video game fixated and know nothing else, today. of course, people make a big deal out of women doing these things, now, but there were always certain women doing these things. you just didn't treat them like puppy dogs that did a trick for you.)

now, if i get that response 99% of the time, so do other mechanical guys. so, if they assume a woman they meet is not mechanically minded, are they really being sexist or are they simply reacting to a lifetime of previous encounters?

like i say, i view every person and every situation as a unique, individual. most people don't. quickly judging a being, or situation, that you encounter by what you already know IS a natural survival mechanism. quick action, based on previous experience, can save an animal from sudden death....that includes humans.

so, applying that to sailing: i am willing to bet that 99% of the time, most of these guys you have run into have found that women, sailing with their male partner, are not the boat owner and are not the primary one who is interested. if you look back in this thread you will see the same thing mentioned...by women as well as men.

those guys who assume the boat is your husband's are only acting on previous experience. it has nothing to do with sexism.

if you want to look at it evenly, men do not have men only sailing nights or men only clubs ( that's not even allowed by law ). women do have women only sailing events and they also have tons of women only organizations, of all sorts. that's sexist.

as with motorcycles, i find that most men are not just supportive of a woman that sails, they think it is sexy. so, they certainly aren't trying to keep women from sailing, which would be sexist.

i find that the trouble with people who are always looking for an 'ism' and always trying to classify someone as an 'ist' is that, if you look hard enough, you can convince yourself that anything, however minor, fits that 'ism'.

why is it that there are never very many blacks playing hocky? is it racist? are the evil canadians purposely keeping them out because they secretly wished they had slaves? or maybe, it's just because black guys tend to prefer basketball. you could ask if basketball was racist because it is predominantly black. but both questions would just be seeking an 'ist' or finding an 'ism' where there isn't one.

not everyone likes all things equally. sexist women aren't keeping men out of knitting classes. men just aren't very interested in knitting.

and, if you assume the husband is the boat owner and the primary sailing enthusiast, it's not because you are an evil sexist jerk. it's because 99% of the couples you meet fit that description.

but then, som e people are always looking for the 'ists' of the world. the trouble is, if you are looking for it, you just focus public attention on our differences....which fosters 'isms'.

just let life alone. let people live as they will. don't assume everyone is an evil 'ist' out there trying to hold some other group down. most people are decent folk not trying to hold anyone down. there are buttholes in every group of people but the butthole minority doesn't define the group. it's an exception to the group.

i can't speak for any other guy here, but i think it is awesome when i meet women who are sailors, because they love sailing, or bikers, because they love to ride. i have spent a lifetime hoping to meet one of those elusive types of women. they would be the perfect partner to share a life with. on the other hand, a woman that will dedicate herself to a lifestyle because her husband/boyfriend is a part of that lifestyle is a very specisal woman, too. to dedicate yourself to something out of love for another....well, not everyone can love that selflessly.
 
#259 ·
I think I get that perspective. It also eliminates any thoughts that you're making a play for the woman (if the potential was there). I try to engage both in the conversation by shifting eye contact between the two of them so that both feel I'm asking questions that I assume either can answer. If one points to the other and says "That's his/her area" then I will address my questions to that person but occasionally still draw in the other.
 
#261 · (Edited)
not to ramble but another point just came to me. and that is that the drive to stamp out 'isms' only creates a condecending attitude towards the subjects of said supposed 'isms'.

case in point:

i was sailing back river, in essex maryland, about two months ago. i was sailing from cox point, if any of you know the area. i was coming back into the dock, for the evening, sailing in circles waiting for the dock to become available.

on one pier, there was a guy loading up. he had one friend behind the wheel of his truck.

on the other pier, there was a group of 5 women, ranging between their late 20s and late 40s.

both groups were power boaters. no sailors in this example.

i have watched countless numbers of men load up their boats. some really sucked at it and some were deft and skillful. none of them ever made a big deal about doing it. it's just something you do, like washing dishes. you want to eat off of clean dishes so, you wash them. you want to take your boat home, so you load it onto your trailer. no big deal.

this group of women was war-whooping and patting themselves on the back, as if they were painting the Mona Lisa or solving world hunger, the whole time. it took them forever. they had started before the guys had even gotten the boat back to the dock.

when done, they exclaimed," it's not pretty, but we did it."

now, before i go any further, by making such a big deal out of something men do, out of routine without any fanfare, they might as well have been dancing around chanting," we are less than men but we succeeded in doing a manly task so praise us because we have risen above our lowly status."

seriously. that's how it sounded, although neither group saw it. if they truly thought themselves the equals of men, who do the same thing as if it was routine, like brushing your teeth, they wouldn't have been cheering themselves on as if it was a big accomplishment. it wasn't. they just put their boat back on the trailer. it's not a big accomplishment unless you think that you belong to a group that is not normally capable of achieving it.

so, back to my story:

after all the celebration, they realize that, although the boat was on the trailer and out of the water, it was almost a foot off center, at the stern. then they had to back up, into te water again, and it took them a deal more fanfare and back slapping to....not be able to get it centered.

all this time i am tacking and jibing in circles waiting to use the dock with nothing better to do than watch the show.

so, the guy who is loading the boat on the trailer walks over and tells them, step by step, how to fix the problem. and so, in short oder, the boat was actually on the trailer the right way.

and then the celebration starts anew. this time, not only are they patting thmselves on the back ( for a task they actually weren't able to do without help ) but the guys, both of them, were congratulating them. i was amazed. the whole thing was just condecending to women and an insult to the, actual, skillful female boaters i have seen, while sailing.

it's like the women were proud to have achieved a lofty accomplishment; one only achievable by men....i can only suppose it was becase they didn't truly believe women could do something like that.

and the men....they were only doing what society has taught them they should do...but their congratulations just furthered the idea that loading a boat on a trailer is something that only guys can do so, you need to congratulate these helpless little girls for being able to do it( with the help of a man).

the whole scene was so appalling i had to share it with my girlfriend, when i got home.

there was nothing for them to celebrate or congatulate about. putting a boat back on a trailer isn't hard. men can do it. women can do it. they failed to be able to do it. but they got acclaim because they were women, which is sexist because it assumes that women can't really do that sort of thing.

in comparison, there is this nice, older lady....maybe 50 something....i have seen, in a johnboat, while i was sailing at lake marburg. we have spoken, in passing, a few times. she goes up and takes her numerous grandkids, and other family, out on boat rides. she is very skillful with her boat. she is also one of the few power bvoaters, up there, that i have met that is considerate and friendly on the water.

when they are there, there is no doubt that she is the skipper. she is confident and sure of herself.

she also makes no big deal out of her abilities wth a boat. like all the guys you see, she treats it as just something she does....and so does everyone around her. no one pats her on the back or cheers her on. not because they don't respect her as a woman but, rather, because they respect her as a human, capable of the same things as any other human. the acceptance of her abilities as being a normal thing is a statement that no one considers her a lesser being that needs congratulated for doing the activities of her 'betters'. and it's her attitude, that her skill is just a normal thing on the water, which fosters this idea: the idea that her womanhood does not make her less than men doing the same thing.

i'm not sure if anyone will see this the same way i do, but that's how i see it. if women consider themselves the equals of men, and men are also supposed to consider them as equals, then there shouldn't be a big fanfare just because they do the same activities.

you can't hope to have a group seen as being the same as another group if you keep pointing out that they are different.
 
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