I'm just a poor boy. Is this just fantasy? please advise. - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Welcome to Sailnet > Introduce Yourself
 Not a Member? 

Introduce Yourself Welcome to the Sailnet.com - The world's largest online sailing community! Tell us about yourself so we can get to know you. NEW!


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 01-11-2010
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,923
Thanks: 79
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Spare him his life from this monstrosity!

Hey AK - welcome to SN dude. Anyone that kicks it off with "Bohemian Rhapsody" has got immediate respect.

Bismillah! No, we will not let you go!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 01-11-2010
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,604
Thanks: 67
Thanked 178 Times in 174 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Doesn't seem (to me) to make much sense for AK to be buying a $10-15K boat on the East Coast if he'll need to ship it to the West. The costs of trucking will be half again or more of the original price... not much economy there.

There should be acceptable vessels available between the Puget Sound area and Alaska, even Prince Rupert would be a place to have a good look - any further away and it wouldn't be advisable to try to sail the boat "home" to Alaska.

Of course, AK, if you're planning to move to Florida or other points south and east that's a different story!
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 01-11-2010
canadianseamonkey's Avatar
Caribbean Surveyor
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Now in Sosua, DR
Posts: 511
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
canadianseamonkey is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
The one thing that I will say in response to Candianseamonkey's comment is that old certainly does not mean better. In my experience, newer boats are way better built than the boats of yore, and frankly are sturdier (and less paper thin) than many, if not most of the production boats of the 1970's and early 1980's.

For example, CSM's example of the Catalina 30, there are few modern boats (say 20 or so years old) that were more paper thin and poorly put together than the older Catalina 30's. The oil canning of the hull can be heard with almost every wave, and over time fiberglass is greatly weakened by fatigue that come with that kind of repetative flexure.

In the past 20 or so years, hull structural engineering, construction techniques, and the general build quality of the systems have come a very long way. In this modern period, there has been an increased awareness of the need for developing and adhering to safe construction standards, standard which did not even exist before the mid-1980's.

There is a misconception that earlier boats were heavier and better built. The studies and my direct experience actually working on these older designs says that this simply is not the case.

Respectfully,

Jeff
Jeff, wow! I've never heard anybody say that today's fiberglass is applied thicker than in the '70s. It's quite the opposite actually. The fiberglass back then was layed up in multiple layers as the builders didn't really know the strength of the material at that point. Many of today's sailboats hulls are so thin that, when sitting inside you can see the silouhettes of people on the docks. Also, I'm not a big Catalina fan, but given the OP's budget, it's a good fit and just an example. I'll stick with my good old boat, thanks.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 01-11-2010
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,503
Thanks: 3
Thanked 82 Times in 63 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
You see the statement a lot that “Early boat builders did not know how strong fiberglass was and so made it very thick.” Horse Feathers! This is just plain bunk.


During WW II the US federal government had done a lot of research on fiberglass and the information was widely available by the later 1950's and 1960’s. As a kid in the 1960's, I had detailed literature on fiberglass that pretty clearly analyzed its properties and which included accepted design approaches including published strength and flexure values.
Guys like Carl Alberg, who was working for the government designing fiberglass ammo boxes when he was hired by the Pearsons to design the Triton, knew exactly what fiberglass would do.

They knew that the e-glass of that era was pretty poor quality and was especially prone to flexing and to fatigue. They attempted to design fiberglass boats to be as stiff as wooden boats of the era. This took a lot of thickness since F.G. was very flexible compared to wood. This was especially true on a pound for pound basis. They also knew that if the boats were not as stiff as wood, there would be major fatigue problems. This put early designers in a bind. If they made the glass boats as thick as a wooden planked hull they would be impossibly heavy. If they did not, fatigue would condemn them to a short life.

They mostly chose to compromise. By that I mean they chose to do boats that were not as stiff as the wooden boats they replaced but were heavier. Early glass interpretations of wooden boats were generally heavier and carried less ballast than their wooden counterparts. They were much stronger in bending but not as stiff. As fatigue took place some of these early glass boats became even more flexible which leads to more fatigue, which can lead to a significant reduction in strength.

A large amount of flexure, as is typical in these older boats, was a real problem over the life of the boat. Fiberglass hates to be flexed. Fiberglass is a highly fatigue prone material and over time it looses strength through flexing cycles. A flexible boat may have plenty of reserve strength when new but over time through flexure fiberglass loses this reserve.

There are really several things that determine the overall strength of the hull itself. In simple terms it is the strength of the unsupported hull panel itself (by 'panel' I mean the area of the hull or deck between supporting structures), the size of the unsupported panel, the connections to supporting structures and the strength of the supporting structures. These early boats had huge panel sizes compared to those seen as appropriate today and the connections were often lightly done. By the early 80's, most and certainly the better boat builders understood this issue and had systematically added framing systems that reduced the spans of the panels.

This fatigue issue is not a minor one. In a study performed by the marine insurance industry looking at the high cost of claims made on older boats relative to newer boats and actually doing destructive testing on actual portions of older hulls, it was found that many of these earlier boats have suffered a significant loss of ductility and impact resistance. This problem is especially prevalent in heavier uncored boats constructed even as late as the 1980's before internal structural framing systems became the norm. The study noted that boats built during the early years of boat building tended to use a lot more resin accelerators than are used today. Boat builders would bulk up the matrix with resin rich laminations (approaching 50/50 ratios rather than the idea 30/70), and typically used proportionately high ratios of non-directional fabrics (mat or chopped glass) in order to achieve a desired hull thickness. Resin rich laminates and non-directional materials have been shown to reduce impact resistance and to further increase the tendency towards fatigue. The absence of internal framing means that there is greater flexure in these older boats and that this flexure increases fatigue further.


Over the years, the combination of the methods used to handle fiberglass fabrics within the factories, the improved methods usedto make the fiberglass fibers and turn them to fabric, the formulation of the resins used, and the precision with which resins are mixed, the careful balance of resin to fiber ratios and orientation of the fibers within the hull combined with better stress mapping has improved the strength and durability of the matric enormously. The closer spaced framing and structural attachment means that the physical stength of the modern boats far exceed the strength of the earliest thick skinned boats.


But more to the point, the 1970's was a period when boat builders had begin looking for ways to lighten boats. With the price of resin rising rapidly, one natural way was to reduce hull thickness. They simply lightened scantlings but had not yet made the leap to proper internal framing. Boats like the Catalina 30, have skins that are no thicker than modern boats of a similar size, but lack the structural advances that make the even medium quality modern boats much stronger than their predecesors.


Respectfully,
Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay and part-time purveyor of marine supplies

Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-12-2010 at 10:06 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 01-11-2010
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKsteve View Post
I have a relatively small amount of money saved ($15,000), I know in the boat market this is an insubstantial amount of money. I have been casually shopping for boats online and there seems to be quite a few old boats that meet my basic requirements for under $15,000 dollars.
I am looking at the January edition of “Voile et Voiliers”, a French mag. On the front page you can see a guy sitting in a miniscule sailboat, half hidden by big waves.

The title is “3 Years, 6 meters, 30 000 miles, an incredible solo circum navigation in a dayboat” (freely translated).

The boat is really incredible. I am sure that the guy paid for it a fraction of the money you have for a boat. It´s an old, old boat and it is a lake boat.

Another mad guy that was lucky, the vast majority of the readers of this thread would think.
Well, personally I would not disagree, but reading deeper I found out that the guy has a PhD in electronics and is a Sail monitor (course and cruising) with more than 10 000 miles experience.

And being lucky for 30 000 miles and three years is an improbability. A hell of a sailor for sure…and a lucky one also.

By the way, this guy was not trying to prove anything, that boat was the best he could find with the money he had.

Bottom point: If you have the manual skills and recover an old boat, probably, if you don’t count the hours you are going to spend working, in the end, when you sell it again, in much better shape, you will not lose money and meanwhile you will have been sailing and living on a boat.

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 01-11-2010
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post

There are a lot of good boats out there in your price range but I would think that it would be next to impossible to live year round on a small sailboat in Alaska. I can't imagine that you can store a boat in the water in winter in Alaska and so many of the important life supporting systems will not operate. But more to the point, even a log cabin has more insulation value than a fiberglass boat, making whatever heat source that you have go much further in terms of making life liveable. Small boats without cored hulls have almost no insulation value at all, and so are very hard to keep comfortable.


Respectfully,

Jeff
I don't know if it is impossible, but certainly it will not be easy. See if some locals do it and talk with them. They will certainly have a lot of knowledge about the local conditions.

I believe that you will need a solid boat with a small interior space and with a good heater.

Something like this:

1984 Vancouver Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 01-12-2010
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kingston Washington
Posts: 499
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 5
Waltthesalt is on a distinguished road
You should be able to get what you want anywhere. Pick the area you intend to sail in. The West coast is more challenging to move boats out in the open water. At 30 ft you're getting a boat with headroom, and a more comfortable live aboard. At 27 ft you're not with a lot less interior space. you'll find uese Catalina 30's everywhere. It's also the standard for that size with room and a strong class association. In this market you should be able to get a boat that is in good condition and has the upgrades that you want. It's very expensive to do upgrading unless it's just sweat work. Avoid buying gear new. I keep a list of what gear I need and routinely cruise consignment places and swap meets. That's the only way I can afford what I do.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 01-12-2010
jrd22's Avatar
Courtney the Dancer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Juan Islands., WA, USA
Posts: 3,808
Thanks: 3
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 14
jrd22 will become famous soon enough
AK- first things first. Where exactly are you planning to do this coastal cruising while living aboard? It makes a big difference in the type of boat you should be looking for IMHO. If you are planning to live aboard and cruise the BC coast (Alaska to Seattle area) you might want to think about a pilothouse, or at least something you can put a full enclosure over the cockpit and still sail. You'll also need a reliable heat source (or two). If, on the other hand you are planning to return to CA, especially southern CA, you might want to concentrate on a completely different type of boat. Are you interested in racing at all, or are you thinking about offshore? These are all basic questions that you need to answer before looking at specific boats to buy. It's easy to buy a boat right now, hard to sell one so you want to get what will work for you the first time. I think you'll be able to find a decent boat for $12-15K, but do your homework first and figure out what is important to you. Good luck and keep us informed.
__________________
John
SV Laurie Anne

1988 Brewer 40 Pilothouse

Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 01-12-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
AKsteve is on a distinguished road
Thanks

Thanks for the input everybody! The more I search the more I am finding that most of the boats that meet my requirements are in Florida or California. I am not planning on returning to Alaska, If I find my boat in Florida I will sail Florida to start. what are everyone's thoughts on Catalina 30's? They seem like a comfortable liveaboard and there are many on the market but are they any fun to sail?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 01-12-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 7
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
AKsteve is on a distinguished road
Bljones- thanks for the books, I will absolutely check those out.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New boat-need advise re: bringing her to Seattle SeattleSail Learning to Sail 7 12-08-2009 06:36 PM
need boat advise metolius-to Boat Review and Purchase Forum 17 12-28-2008 12:00 PM
Fantasy Fest in Key West this weekend Seagypsywoman Crew Wanted/Available 2 10-30-2003 08:06 AM
Green sailor needs advise on docking, an anchor......... sailingsundance Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 2 05-21-2003 11:15 AM
Advise needed on dealing over price Mrs Mutiny Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 02-04-2002 11:34 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:43 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012