Marine and his wife looking for their first sailboat

[ScottC93]

Hello to everyone from Baghdad,
I've tried to be a good steward of the site. I read the rules for SailNet, I familiarized myself with the suggested 'get the most out of SailNet' posts, and I now throw myself at the mercy of the SailNet community. Here it goes.

While I am not new to boating, I am new to sailing. I had several sailing and navigation classes at the Naval Academy (almost 20 years ago...), but being young and knowing everything at the time...I didn't save any of the materials or retain the knowledge. Idiot. I owned a Sea Ray 260 Sundancer for a few years, but have since sold that boat. I met and married the "Admiral", and she's convinced me to return to the wonderful world of sailing. Anything to get out on the water! We both have a great love (and respect) for the ocean.

I am in Baghdad, Iraq currently. I am a Marine Lieutenant Colonel, and live in Emerald Isle, NC. We will be there for at least the next 2-3 years, at which point, we are considering retirement and setting down some roots. So it is safe to say that our cruising grounds will be the coastal Carolinas/East Coast. We have every intention of taking an ASA certified sailing course when I get home, so we'll be that much more prepared once we make our purchase. I have dreams of a Captain's license.

We are entering the used sailboat market when I return in the fall. While our budget can go as high as $150k, we're shooting for an older boat and would really like to stay below $90-100k. We'd like something in the 37'+ range. Our cruising goals are mostly coastal cruising for the next few years to develop experience and confidence. It will mostly be day trips, which will soon turn into weekends, then longer. I would like to eventually make a run to the Keys and over to the Bahamas (when the winds aren't from the North!). I know some of you would suggest a two boat program, but for many reasons, that is not realistic for us. Since we're coastal, we'll need a shoal draft/centerboard. We are looking for a solid, reliable, comfortable cruiser. We have absolutely no interest whatsoever in racing. I don't mind doing some of the lighter upgrades, but would like to avoid the need to refit major systems. The only exception is that I prefer to do a complete electronics upgrade. We'll occasionally have friends and family with us, but most of the time it will be the two of us and our black lab. The Admiral left the technical specifications to me, but she has some very distinct visual preferences that I must comply with. We will hire the best surveyor we can find to go over the boat (and possibly a mechanic for the diesel, a rigger for the rigging, etc).

Initially, we were going down the Beneteau road, looking at recent model years. Then I started seeing terms like, "Bendy-Toys" and "HunterBeneLina" in the SailNet forums. I'd rather go a little older and get a quality boat than something that may not last us 15-20+ years. We've since both agreed on Tartan 37's, but she absolutely fell in love with a particular Allied 42 XL that went through an extensive repair/refit a few years ago.

That brings me to my questions. For fiberglass hulled boats like Tartans and Allied, how old is too old? The Allied was recored and had her major systems upgraded, but the asking price is still $95k. While she is drop dead gorgeous...is that too much for a 40 year old boat? I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has had to balance the need for seaworthiness with the desire for comfort and visual impact. I'd also like to hear from anyone who has experience on those two brands...and suggestions for other boats we should consider. Finally, I'm all ears (eyes, technically) when it comes to boat insurance.

Thanks for investing the time in my missive. I am really looking forward to your input.

Fair winds and following seas...and of course, Semper Fi.

ScottC93

[bljones]

IMO a well-maintained, well-loved 40 year old boat will offer fewer future headaches then an apathetically maintained and/or neglected 10 year old boat.
Something to think about: All boats are pretty. Pretty expensive, pretty maintenance intensive, pretty complicated...
But they always look pretty in the pictures.
Before investing one's self too heavily in any one brand of boat, establish exactly what your parameters are: both you and your wife need to establish your wants, needs and dealbreakers. For example, draft- how much is too much, how much is too little? If you buy a centerboard boat, can you still get into your harbour if the centerboard is stuck down?
Once you have established your limits, lay out an excel spreadsheet, and start comparing boats. Objectively, you'll be able to see what really fits your needs. you might be surprised to find that the boat you love now is a boat that you can't live with later.

[CaptainForce]

I expect boats that are decades old to have more of their seaworthiness dependant upon the history of their care than the reputation of their manufacturer. We cruise the East US Coast from Maine to the Bahamas on board our 1973 Morgan that we've had for 25 years and it suits us well. The Tartans and Allieds can be excellent choices, but any individual vessel can have problems. Rely on a good survey and you'll find an old boat that's stronger than any crew. Take care and joy, Aythya crew

[hellosailor]

Scott, I'm not sure a Marine is allowed to have a captain's license, after all, tradition dictates that Marines are part of the cargo, not running the boat. Of course, since you graduated the USNA, you might qualify for special dispensation. (VBG)

But if you are going to locate to NC, BendyToy might not be such a bad idea as their US factory is there. I think they would say that they try to get rid of excess weight (as opposed to being built too lightly) and they try to use unconventional engineering in order to solve problems. Like carbon-fiber rudder posts, instead of stainless ones (stainless ones always will fail), and regular nuts and bolts with cast iron keels instead of conventional J-bolts in lead keels. There are pros and cons to their "differences" and a lot of happy owners, including major charter fleet operators.

I'd look very carefully at any boat that had been 'recored'. Presumably that was just the deck, not the entire hull, but it is a major job (can cost more than the boat is listed for!) and must be done right or it will fail again.

Practical Sailor has been polling their readers for years about their old boats, and has published at least two volumes of "used boat" reviews that go into extensive detail on what the owners have found over the years. That might be worth getting hold of, to see how different makes and models have faired.

[ScottC93]

If Marines are considered cargo, we should be considered very valuable cargo. Despite that whole Guadalcanal...thing, our sister service has taken very good care of the Men's Department of the Navy.

I've read some horror stories about the iron hulls. Particularly how they are prone to pitting and rusting, and that they aren't shaped to fit exactly to the bottom of the Beneteau hulls. Now I say that with two caveats. 1. I've only read those things online, and never seen them for myself, and 2. I know properly maintained zincs and electronic isolation within the boat and around the docks minimize rusting...but lead doesn't rust. It just oxidizes VERY slowly. No ferrous materials.

The Beneteau factory is in Marion, SC, about 3-4 hours from us. We might tour it to rule them in or out.

Great idea about Practical Sailor. Signing up for that was one of my better decisions a few months ago. I love a good impartial review. BLJones, I really like your spreadsheet idea, too. Although I am a Marine...I was a Math major, and a bit of a closet geek. But before you laugh...you should know I'm bigger than you

[killarney_sailor]

I would not worry at all about buying a well-built, well-maintained older boat. Our Bristol 45.5 is pushing 30 years and we are heading off on a circumnav with more confidence in our boat than ourselves, i.e., it would do fine even if find things too tough.

Since you mention a centerboard, you might consider a Bristol 38.8. I think that you would find it to be a terrific boat, although likely at the top of your price range. Note that Bristol went upmarket when they went to the decimal models (eg 38.8, 45.5) and so these boats are newer, nicer, and pricier than Bristol 40s, 38s etc.

[hellosailor]

"we should be considered very valuable cargo." One expects that you ARE. These days, when the Navy loads a mess of marines about a ship, the sole purpose of the trip is usually to deliver them intact and well fed, isn't it?

An iron keel won't rust--if it is properly protected. It will be substantially cheaper than a lead keel, which is important on the mass market. But, it will also be bulkier, so the keel shape may not be optimum, resulting in reduced pointing ability or reduced stability or a slower boat. Maybe, maybe not. If you ever get REAL BORED, you can do the math on that. :-)

And Beneteau's system allows for individual "keel bolts" (their bolt-and-nut kind rather than 'real' J-bolts) to actually be removed and replaced individually if needed, as opposed to hauling the boat and doing some nasty work on a conventional lead keel. So...there is some method in their seeming madness.

I give them credit for trying to innovate though. Whether they're just trying to make some profit (without which companies usually go out of business) or whether they're really trying to build a better boat, is above my pay grade.