seeking first boat - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Welcome to Sailnet > Introduce Yourself
 Not a Member? 

Introduce Yourself Welcome to the Sailnet.com - The world's largest online sailing community! Tell us about yourself so we can get to know you.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 08-13-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
erevllocin is on a distinguished road
seeking first boat

I am looking for my first sailboat. Have sailed 30 to 40 times but never skippered on my own. Seeking Coast Guard certification in September. Have always been enamored with classical long overhang lines (Morris, Herrschoff, Cape Dory....). I have three women in my family who have not done much sailing but are enthusiastic crew.

I need to decide between a day sailer under 25' or a small cruiser under 40. Nevertheless, both need to be trailered. I believe I should choose a sloop for sailing ease. Either choice needs to have high resale value for upgrade.

Will sail in Virginia and Nova Scotia.

Please critique this any way you want. I am a dry sponge for in put.

Thank you,

Jamie
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 08-13-2010
Water Lover
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA (Heron, Elephant Butte lakes); Arizona (Lake Pleasant)
Posts: 695
Thanks: 3
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 5
rgscpat is on a distinguished road
Talk to lots of people and keep looking at boats

Jamie,

You do have some good relevant experience. What kinds of boats have you sailed?

Sailing on lots of boats and talking to lots of boat owners is a good starting point. There are lots of boats -- cheap in the current economy -- and so you shouldn't be in a hurry. That is, unless maybe you have some particular reason for getting your USCG ticket soon, like a job opportunity that you need all the sea service time and ticket for as soon as you can get it.

Owning a boat is a whole different game from crewing, of course. For those who'd rather spend all their time sailing, maintenance can be the "dark side" of sailing. But other people love to fiddle and perfect and mess with boats all the time. Which are you?

Before anyone can go too far with advice, it would really help if you can narrow down the "mission", "job description", or "role" of your boat. Is it day sailing, voyaging, local racing, ocean racing, cruising across the ocean, entertaining clients in a marina, discovering new horizons, going really fast, feeling really secure, being able to take anything, being able to outrun anything? Will you want a boat that's really simple to sail by yourself without much attention? Or do you want a boat with lots of controls and tweeks and delicate adjustments to balance and harmonize? Is it important that the boat be tougher than the crew and able to take care of you? How important is a comfortable motion to you? What is the weather like where you would be sailing? Will your sailing be seasonal or in all weather? Hot or cold climates?

How many creature comforts do you need? Which are critical? How much are you into gizmos? How much time and money are you willing to spend to keep all the gadgets working? What is your tolerance for sailing with some things not working and how do you rate yourself at cobbling together emergency repairs?

Will you be by yourself much of the time or will your crew always be there? How skilled will they be? Can you train some of them to do everyone's jobs or will you be the only one who can do some of the critical jobs like docking the boat or getting the trim just right? Will you be teaching others to sail -- and have to assume your crew know nothing and need to be able to handle the boat by yourself?

There is no one perfect boat, but some boats are good at more than one thing and some are brilliant compromises.

As an example, you mentioned that you like boats with a certain classical look, those with long overhangs. Presumably that means that you don't like boats that look like fat pigs, even though they have tons of space and usually lots of comforts on board. And remember that to get the same amount of space, a classic looking boat will have to be lots longer than the "marina queens" and the marina or mooring operator is going to charge you for those long overhangs.

You mentioned that your boat will have to be trailered and you mentioned boats up to 40'. Most people don't consider boats beyond around 27' to be what they call trailerable. Sure, some people with good towing vehicles and trailers will transport large boats themselves, but it takes some skill and guts. Unless you have something like a GMC 5500/6500 or some other humongously powerful vehicle you'll be limited to something far smaller than 40'.

A lot of 30-footers run around 10,000 lbs., and trailers and gear can add several thousand more lbs. This sort of load can push the ability of even a superduty diesel dually. So what's the capacity of your towing vehicle? How much can you spend on a towing vehicle and maintenance? Do you want to have to deal with wide-load towing regulations? How comfortable would you be with danging a 40-foot mast in the sky above your boat -- or with paying someone big buck$$$ to rig your boat?

If you go with an all-woman crew, you might want to look at ergonomics more closely than some young guys do, depending upon your crew's fitness and stature. Booms that are hung way up high, big anchors without windlasses, really tall cabins with hard-to-reach handholds, etc., might not be popular with your crew. There are solutions to all such issues; they just want to be thought through.

Sailing is many different things, and a sailor's interests can change dramatically over time. Someone once amended the saying,
"There is no one perfect boat" to "... except for the next one."
Pat
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 08-13-2010
Water Lover
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA (Heron, Elephant Butte lakes); Arizona (Lake Pleasant)
Posts: 695
Thanks: 3
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 5
rgscpat is on a distinguished road
I meant "dangling" the mast. But you might say something stronger than "dang" at the mast and boom and the rest of the rig at some point!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 08-16-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
erevllocin is on a distinguished road
first sailboat

Pat, Sorry for the delay. I just realized that I did not reply properly on the 14th AM. Here it is:

Pat, what a terrific reply, requiring lots of new thinking. Without
replying to each question, let me start with answers that might hit
on the larger and perhaps most important questions.

Let me begin with, I am conscious of how different it is from crewing
to owning. I began this not only seeking a boat, but advice about
different boats that I had not and could not think about. You have
already hit on a lot and thanks.

For a first boat, I would like something easy to sail, low
maintenance and simple to rig. Masting a boat is something, stupidly
had not thought of. Go figure. I will want to be able and comfortable
to sail on my own and will more than likely only sail during good
weather, March to December. I will be sailing only for pleasure with
maybe some racing. I am not interested in a lot of gadgets to fiddle
with. I have sailed on Dark Harbor 20, a few J's, Hinckley 42...
Having owned an F 550 and pulled a 12 horse trailer, I am used to the
process of large and heavy loads. I don't want to do that with my
first boat, so I am probably more realistically looking at under 30
maybe smaller, like 20. Nevertheless, I am interested in the dialogue
for the larger boats as I look into the future of an upgrade.

I would like to be able to sleep over with my family of four. Got to
get going. Off to Michigan to see my girls finish a canoe trip from
Metamora to Lake Erie that they have been doing for 10 years. Should
be a blast.

Thank you, Pat. Can't wait for the next string of advice and questions.

Jamie
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 08-16-2010
Water Lover
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Mexico, USA (Heron, Elephant Butte lakes); Arizona (Lake Pleasant)
Posts: 695
Thanks: 3
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 5
rgscpat is on a distinguished road
a few thoughts more

Jamie,

Presumably you don't want to pay someone to step your mast every time you want to try sailing someplace new. For boats up to about 22-23' feet or so, raising the mast is a pretty simple job that you can often do by yourself. Boats a little bigger/heavier than that with deck-stepped masts can often have a lifting rig set up that uses a short pole and the jib halyard. Bigger or more complicated than that, for something like a Catalina 25 or 27, people use mast raising poles where they are available, or have a "gin pole" rig. Yet bigger boats often get into heavier keel-stepped masts and more complicated rigging. I'm thinking that something like around 28 feet or more boat LOA is where most people have the boatyard do their mast-stepping and rigging.

For launching, in addition to the mast issues, most keelboats will need to be launched with a trailer tongue extension or have the trailer and boat lowered on a cable or rope. The drill isn't too bad once you get used to it but can provide some nice entertainment for folks at the boat ramp. It can make finding a good-quality boat ramp important. Some smaller keelboats that are oriented toward racing also have lifting bolts over their keels and can be lowered into the water by cranes that some boatyards, marinas, or yacht clubs have. It's great when you can avoid getting salt water on a trailer.

I'm thinking you might look at Catalina 25 and 27's as "little big boats". There are lots of them around and I affectionately call the 27 the "smallest of the big boats". The Cat 27 is about the biggest thing I can imagine a lot of people wanting to trailer, at something like 6000-7000 lbs plus trailer.

The MacGregor 26 comes in different flavors, including the "notorious" powersailers that some sailors love to make fun of. The X and M do have very high freeboards and hence lots of windage, that combines with their relatively flat bottoms to make a less-than ideal sailing experience. But the pre-powersailer Macs are not so bad sailers and are easy to tow with the ballast tank emptied and very easy to rig. Hunter also makes some centerboard and water ballasted cruisers that usually look pretty inside, whereas the Macs can be very plain inside. Freedom Yachts makes boats with unstayed rigs that are simple to sail.

A J/24 or J/80 might be fun if you are a racer but they aren't so comfy for the family and some of them may have been "ridden hard and put away wet". Santa Cruz's are also boats with a racing flavor. Merit 25's like to consider themselves "what the J/24 should have been."

If you want something that sits lower on its trailer and is easier to rig and cope with as a first boat, the Catalina 22 is a popular classic that's available in a limited draft version and is a really nice boat for lakes and for towing around a lot.

If you want something with a bare bones cabin more for just two people for a night, but with good performance, you might try something like the Santana 20. The "tuna 20" can be lots of fun and will really move even in light air.

And there are many many other "classic plastic" boats out there. Your reactions to the boats mentioned above may help you zero in on what you want.

You'll want to pay lots of attention to the Sailnet thread and information on how to inspect boats. There are lots of good boats available, so the general advice is to RUN! not walk away from "project boats" with serious hull and deck issues.

It's perfectly normal for your boat preferences and your definition of the perfect boat to change with time or as you become interested in different aspects of sailing. That's entirely okay.

Last edited by rgscpat; 08-16-2010 at 11:15 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 08-16-2010
mstern's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 684
Thanks: 8
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 13
mstern is on a distinguished road
Some very sound questions/advice from rgscpat; I would have said pretty much the same things he did. One big hole left to fill: what's your budget?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 08-17-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
erevllocin is on a distinguished road
Pat, great again. I will reply to this more completely after I return from Mi on Wednesday. I need to look at your boat suggestions.

Thanks, Jamie
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 08-17-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
erevllocin is on a distinguished road
mstern, have not created a budget, yet. Need to learn more about boats and simultaneously learn what I want. It does seem that small boats are quite reasonable, and perhaps will be even more so after the summer season. I am reluctant to spend too much as my knowledge cure is so steep. I don't want to have wished I had done something else after only one season. So resale value is very important.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 08-17-2010
mstern's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 684
Thanks: 8
Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 13
mstern is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by erevllocin View Post
mstern, have not created a budget, yet. Need to learn more about boats and simultaneously learn what I want. It does seem that small boats are quite reasonable, and perhaps will be even more so after the summer season. I am reluctant to spend too much as my knowledge cure is so steep. I don't want to have wished I had done something else after only one season. So resale value is very important.

Understood. Its just very helpful to know if you have $5000 to spend, or do you have $20,000 to spend. Makes an enormous difference in the advice and suggestions you will get. For example, you say you like the old-fashioned look of overhangs (me too). You can get a Cape Dory Typhoon Weekender (a 22 foot beauty) with an engine and trailer in decent shape for $5000. However, the boat will be at least forty years old, with all of the attendent issues of an outdated keel design and old wood components. But if you have $50,000 to spend, a used version of one of the new classic looking daysailers is not out of the question.

In other words, even if you don't know for sure how much you have, I bet you have some idea of how much you will want to spend. Remember, the more info you provide, the better the advice you will get.

And don't forget to enjoy the hunt!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 08-20-2010
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
erevllocin is on a distinguished road
mstern

Great response, well crafted with great questions; thought provoking. I do, indeed, favor the older styles with the long overhangs. I am a male who wants to be proud of the pretty woman on my arm. I do, indeed, like the Cape Dory's but am conscious of your advice on age. Reduced upfront costs are valuable to me for the first boat, but I need to consider what needs to be upgraded for a safe and fun sail: sails, underbelly, winches, electronics, motor...etc.

The first boat is probably not going to last very long because I like expensive boats with graceful lines: Cape Dory, Sabre, Herreshoff, Morris, Allberg, Dark Harbor, Shields... Although I have seen some reasonable prices for Sabres, Morrise's and Cape Dory's, but what of the upgrade costs, I do not know. Until I have owned, been through the process, sailed and spent evenings with my girls on board, I will not know my needs.

Perhaps I should charter for a season or two to get through this process?

Please keep it coming. I am learning a lot. Thank you, Jamie
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What makes a boat "Blue Water" worthy HappyPappy Boat Review and Purchase Forum 21 08-06-2014 02:28 PM
Relevance of VAT when selling a boat in EU myocean General Discussion (sailing related) 9 04-13-2012 05:01 PM
Boat explosion finally reaches a conclusion Classic30 General Discussion (sailing related) 23 10-06-2010 08:24 AM
What type a boat to get? Phxpoker Learning to Sail 12 08-13-2010 03:36 AM
The question of ages - what boat? vtsailguy General Discussion (sailing related) 9 08-04-2010 08:54 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:03 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.