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  #11  
Old 06-12-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

Quote:
Originally Posted by greentree8 View Post
I put my prototype on where the original mast step would go...Just two pieces of wood, one on top that has a hole the shape of the mast. I have not tried it yet...I have my doubts. Seems like steel/aluminum is the way to go.
I'm not quite understanding the step. If the mast is light enough to just pick up and set in a depression then that might okay. But, if you have to walk the mast up I don't think that will work.

Quote:
Here is the bottom of the mast. It has a slot for something to fit into it
Was the slot intended to be a pivot point? Did you see these details when the boat was in working condition?

Quote:
also, the bottom is angled...do masts typically lean backwards slightly?
Yes, that is the common configuration, a slight backward tilt.

Quote:
As far as raising it my self, that may be tricky...It's pretty light, but it's tall...18 feet or so? So my prototype may not work that well...There is no way it would stand by itself.
Yes, I see now that with no mast box that it wouldn't stand by itself. I can barely do mine by myself but it is 23' tall with an oval shape.

Quote:
I will have to try and see it it's an issue. I think the original step had a pin that would stick up into the hollow of the mast...not that big that it would hold the mast though..I don't think.
My mast is pinned so it is basically hinged at the base. I use the jib halyard to help pull the mast up and hold it until I get the fore-stay attached.

I don't know if yours has a jib halyard. But, it might be intended to pivot on a pin or spur sticking up into the base of the mast. I can't really tell from the picture how deep the slot in the mast butt is or if it was intended that way. Obviously a shallow slot wouldn't provide any security while a deep and narrow slot wouldn't allow a pivot.

I also don't know how many attachment points there are on your bow. Mine has three attachment points with the fore-stay attaching in the center. So, I use the inner attachment as an anchor for the jib halyard. After the fore-stay is attached this is where the jib down-haul goes. I'm assuming you raise your mast somewhat similarly with it being held by the shrouds on each side and only needed the fore-stay to be attached.
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Old 06-12-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

Quote:
Originally Posted by greentree8 View Post
Mast, boom, rudder, daggerboar and sails all seems fine. I should say the daggerboard seems fine after I split it and reglued/epoxyed it... Shrouds seem ok too. Even the loops that the shrouds attach to seem solid too. So it's in decent shape other than the pics that I posted!
And your deck hardware is good? The blocks and cleats that control the main sheet? The shroud and stay anchor points are good?

Those almost look like bare wood. Did you put a coat of spar varnish on your dagger board and rudder? Also, did you inspect the bottom of the dagger board trunk where it meets the hull bottom? Sometimes you can get leaks there. Does your dagger board have any lead weighting on the bottom?
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Old 06-12-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

This is the interior of a Sunfish.


I wonder if yours is made in a similar fashion. Basically they make the Sunfish with decks too weak to walk on so they add blocks of foam underneath to provide support. The blocks also double as floatation.

It is not at all unusual to cut holes and install inspection ports in Sunfish. I think that is what I would do to get to the gudgeon hardware. Here is an example.



You can even do two if necessary.



Basically I would put in the biggest diameter one I could to have room to work.

Last edited by brehm62; 06-12-2012 at 01:59 AM.
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Old 06-12-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer



That one isn't too bad. I'll attach an image of what I repaired on mine. If the piece is loose you can remove the broken fiberglass and then repair it with glass fabric and epoxy. If it isn't loose then you can sand the damaged areas and then build them back up.



I can't quite tell if this damage is down into the glass. However, even if it is it looks like a surface repair where you would just sand down a bit and then build back up without actually having to cut out a piece.



With this one I'm thinking you might reseal it with 5200.
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Old 06-12-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

Quote:
Originally Posted by greentree8 View Post
3. The holes...you mentioned getting behind...I can't do that I dont' think...the whole boat is sealed so no way to get behind anything to add support. I'm wondering if I could use toggle bolts? Do they make them in stainless?
If you did use toggle bolts how would you seal them? How would you know if the edges of the wings were cutting into the glass when you tighten them? There is also no way that toggle bolts would provide the same backing area as washers.



I can see the four holes where the gudgeon bracket attached. It looks like at least one of them will need repair. What did you remove below that and to the right? Is that a hole you will re-use?

I would definitely use an inspection port or two to see the back side of this so that you can repair it properly.
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Old 06-15-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

Quote:
Originally Posted by brehm62 View Post
If you did use toggle bolts how would you seal them? How would you know if the edges of the wings were cutting into the glass when you tighten them? There is also no way that toggle bolts would provide the same backing area as washers.


I can see the four holes where the gudgeon bracket attached. It looks like at least one of them will need repair. What did you remove below that and to the right? Is that a hole you will re-use?
Thanks for these pointers. I see the original "Fix" from previous owner was some kind of anchor (not stainless steel) that expanded in the hole when tightened...that's why the 4th hole...bottom right is so big as I had to turn the entire assembly to get it out and it bored the glass and gelcoat.

The larger hole to right and near the bottom is for a drain plug. I don't think it's original...but maybe.

So, I have talked my Dad into installing inspection ports to address the gudgeon bracket properly. As far as the other anchors for the straps near the dagger board, that is going to be a little more problematic as an inspection port will not be really an option. Could I drill out the holes bigger and fill with epoxy/shredded fiber and drill new holes? I can't think of anything that would work...I see your point about toggle bolts digging into the back of the glass...argh.

As far as the rub rail damage and other where it will be hard to get to the back what do you think? Just grind away from the exterior through the gelcoat and layer with fiber/epoxy? Some instructions I have seen say to use glass fiber with some kind of mat sewn or something? Are you familiar? Stuff I found at Menards was just the epoxy with hardener, and a sheet of fiber. Is there another kind?

Thanks again for all of your pointers.

Last edited by greentree8; 06-15-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 06-16-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

Quote:
Originally Posted by greentree8 View Post
The larger hole to right and near the bottom is for a drain plug. I don't think it's original...but maybe.
Is it actually flush with the hull bottom? It looks kind of like it is raised. That would make it difficult to get all the water out.

Quote:
As far as the other anchors for the straps near the dagger board, that is going to be a little more problematic as an inspection port will not be really an option. Could I drill out the holes bigger and fill with epoxy/shredded fiber and drill new holes?
Why couldn't you put inspection covers on the top of the seat-like structure where the daggerboard trunk is? The main problem with inspection covers on top is that they are not strong enough to step on. If you really don't want to do it that way I suppose you could do a variation of a drywall modification.

Suppose you want to attach something to drywall that is heavy? Screws would pull out. So, you cut out a square of drywall. Then you cut a piece of 1" thick wood (like a 1x4 or 1x6) to go behind the hole that is longer than the hole. You put glue on the edges facing out, slip it into the hole and then place it with the glued sides touching the backside of the drywall. You can use a temporary brace to hold it there. Something like another piece of wood across the front with string snugging them up (like a clamp) works pretty well. If you are more impatient you can try something like liquid nails. Then you put the cutout back in place and repair the kerf. A lot of times you need to bevel the edge a bit to get enough room to get spackle in the groove.

So, let's say you were going to do something similar. If you got some aluminum stock like I bought that would make a fairly good backing material. You could possibly cut out a hole and then cut a piece of aluminum longer than the hole is wide. You would glue it to the back of the hole with thickened epoxy. You can thicken it with either fumed silica or wood flour. Sometimes sawdust will work if it is fairly fine. You can even try saving the lint out of your dryer to use as a thickener; that works similar to milled cotton (which was used before we had fumed silica). If you have never seen fumed silica it is like petrified snow. It is white and light and fluffy like snow but you don't want to inhale it or get it in your eyes. It takes a bit of work to get it mixed up in the epoxy.

If you don't have epoxy then if there is a boating store near you they probably have West System which is a good epoxy. If you have to order it I would get it from Raka because they also have a good epoxy but theirs is a bit cheaper than West System. The commonly available resin in car parts stores and most building supply stores is polyester which you can't use. Polyester has a very small container of MEK hardener that is added a few drops at a time. Epoxy harder is usually a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio with the resin so it is a much larger container. I would not buy an off brand at some place like Lowes or Home Depot. I bought an epoxy at Lowes that was labeled as Marine Epoxy. The first batches I did worked okay but then the next year it wouldn't harden. The manufacturer told me that the product was too old. That's ridiculous. Good epoxy should still work even after setting around for years. As I recall, the Raka epoxy I'm using now was bought seven years ago and it is working fine.

While you have the hole cut out you might be able to take care of the opposite side first. You can just use locknuts with washers or you could also use an aluminum backing piece.

Then on the hole side, once you have a piece of aluminum stock glued to the back of the hole you can replace the cutout piece. You might want to put thickened epoxy on the aluminum so that it is also glued to the back of the cutout piece. I would bevel the front face to make the cut wider and then put strips of fabric in to build the material back up in the groove. When working vertically it can help to use thickened epoxy so I would again think seriously about getting some fumed silica. You can't skip the fabric because thickened epoxy by itself is much weaker.

Now with an aluminum backing piece in place you can drill a hole and use toggle bolts if you want. You know that the aluminum can take the stress. The aluminum stock in the picture is 1 inch wide but you would probably want something wider to be sure you didn't drill off the side. The bolts will be loose in the hole because of the size necessary to fit the wings. They probably won't move much when snug so You could try just putting some caulking in the hole before you tighten it up.

Quote:
As far as the rub rail damage and other where it will be hard to get to the back what do you think? Just grind away from the exterior through the gelcoat and layer with fiber/epoxy? Some instructions I have seen say to use glass fiber with some kind of mat sewn or something?
I'm not sure if you are talking about the material or the repair method. Mat is thick and stiff. It's good for building up but it won't bend. You need woven glass fabric. If you have a small gap you can just put strips of glass fabric in. If the gap is larger then you need a backing piece. Typically you use a piece of cardboard (larger than the hole) with a layer fabric over it. Then you run two strings though it near the edges. You wet the fabric with epoxy and then slide it inside the hole. You use the strings to hold it up against the back. After the epoxy hardens you have to trim off the strings and then you have a backing piece to lay the next layers of fabric on. Again, you normally bevel the edges so that it gets wider as you come out. This gives the edges more surface contact but it also helps the patch resist pushing in since it would be wider than the hole. You build up as many layers as you need to match the thickness.

Quote:
Are you familiar? Stuff I found at Menards was just the epoxy with hardener, and a sheet of fiber. Is there another kind?
I would look here: Raka, Inc. 772-489-4070, Epoxy-Fiberglass-Carbon-Kevlar
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  #18  
Old 06-18-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

Quote:
If the gap is larger then you need a backing piece. Typically you use a piece of cardboard (larger than the hole) with a layer fabric over it. Then you run two strings though it near the edges. You wet the fabric with epoxy and then slide it inside the hole. You use the strings to hold it up against the back. After the epoxy hardens you have to trim off the strings and then you have a backing piece to lay the next layers of fabric on. Again, you normally bevel the edges so that it gets wider as you come out. This gives the edges more surface contact but it also helps the patch resist pushing in since it would be wider than the hole. You build up as many layers as you need to match the thickness.
Ahh! Yes, I see now...That's exactly what I need to do...One question though...if I used cardboard, that would just stay inside the boat? Would that be a problem with getting wet and rotting? Is that just not an issue? Fantastic explanation of the process by the way...It finally dawned on me and I think this will work just great!
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Old 06-18-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

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Originally Posted by greentree8 View Post
One question though...if I used cardboard, that would just stay inside the boat? Would that be a problem with getting wet and rotting? Is that just not an issue?
I have some inside my boat. But I suppose if you were concerned about it you could use a thin piece of plastic instead. Sometimes you have to bend them to fit them through the hole. But they can't be so thin that they easily bow out. Milk jug is probably too thin. Maybe a piece off of a laundry detergent jug. You can experiment and see. With mine I first tried luaun but I couldn't flex it enough to make it fit the curve. So, then I ended up using a piece of corrugated cardboard.

Quote:
Fantastic explanation of the process by the way...It finally dawned on me and I think this will work just great!
This is where I got it from. The second method for a single sided patch: Fixing Fiberglass Canoes and Boats

However, he is talking about patching a small hole. The main difficulty for me was finding something stiff enough to span the large hole without bowing out while also being flexible enough to bend with the curve.
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Old 07-17-2012
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Re: Long time dreamer, recent sailer

Hello, may I join in on your conversation? I also have what i think is the same (or very similar) chrysler dagger also with a missing mast step. It has been sitting in my back yard on a trailer for 3 years. The hull is in good shape. I think I'll try making a temporary step out of wood so that I can check out the rigging etc. and determine if anything is missing. I suppose the reason I haven't tried harder is that I do have a hobbie cat holder 12 that I sail along the shores of lake superior.
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