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  #11  
Old 12-05-2012
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Honda Guy Here...

Re: Hellosailor:
- I do let the motor run dry after every usage
- I had used Stabil but it didn't seem to make any difference
- I do think the problem is due to the engine design - it's at least a contributing factor
- I buy my aviation fuel at a small business and general aviation airport. I show up with my red gas can, the fuel truck is called, and I get my 3-gallons. I understand that they have many similar customers. Not sure about this, but I so not think they're supposed to sell it for non-aviation use ... I always feel like I'm breaking the law. "LL" stands for low lead - it contains some lead.

- Bob
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  #12  
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Let me tackle these one at a time:

AVGAS is a leaded fuel, and is more precisely refined than regular unleaded. It has chemicals that make it last longer and it won't break down or attract water like regular unleaded. And for good reasons; when your outboard stops running, tear into the gear locker and look for the paddles. When your Cessna stops, quickly look for a straight section of empty highway. AVGAS is higher octane, but for engines that normally take regular unleaded, it won't help performance. Running AVGAS in any engine that is marked "unleaded only" violates EPA and California Air Resource Board regulations. AVGAS can destroy a catalytic converter, foul spark plugs, plug spark arrestor screens, though off the oxygen sensor, and leave lead deposits on valve seats. Not all those are an issue with most outboard engines.

FUEL TREATMENTS can absolutely help; they act as toxins to microscopic bugs present in all fuels. These bugs reproduce by the millions in tanks with a lot of air (oxygen) inside that are in a warm environment. Enough dead bugs and bug poop react with the fuel and you get that nasty varnish odor along with "biomass" that can plug up the carburetor jets, emulsion tube and tiny passageways. The general rule of thumb is, use a fuel stabilizer/treatment if storing fuel for less than 90 days. Otherwise, dispose of it by dumping into your vehicle's tank.

SOLUTIONS:
• Most marinas sell unleaded fuel that is 100%, e.g., no ethanol. A wise choice; you get the best of everything and still stay legal.
• Going with a slightly larger jet in the carburetor may help; larger jets have bigger holes, make the engine run a bit richer, and are less likely to clog. [Caveat: using a larger jet probably violates a few emissions regulations.] Honda part numbers contain a secret code to tell you the jet size. The standard jet for a BF5 is a #75, and the part number is 99101-ZH7-0750. The next size up is a #78 jet, so get part number 99101-ZH7-0780.
• Not going to use the outboard for at least the next 2 weeks? Drain the carburetor bowl.

IN THE FUTURE, all outboards will have fuel-injection and will eliminate the problems of clogged-up carburetors. Honda has a 125cc scooter engine right now that is fuel-injected, so the tech is there, but the cost is still an issue. But, we're getting closer every day...

-Robert@Honda
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.
xymotic likes this.

Last edited by robert@hm; 12-05-2012 at 09:43 AM.
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  #13  
Old 12-05-2012
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Bob-
I see you've explored all the options. I'm surprised they'll move the truck for a whole three gallons! State laws...criminal possession of fuel...sounds Orwellian, doesn't it? If you've got an warranty left on the engine, has Honda officially responded at all?

Robert-
"most marinas" isn't quite right, in many states they're not allowed to sell pure gasoline no matter how nicely they ask. In some locations, the cost of the damned stuff makes it so uncompetitive, they choose not to, even if they are allowed.
Surely you guys have some kind of carb jet upgrade to send to Bob? Along with some engineer who wants to visit Arizona and install them?

Apparently the topic of low lead and unleaded and what geneal aviation aircraft can or will use for fuel, without falling out of the sky, is a real hotbed. From what I've heard the EPA wants no lead, and everyone else says that's a nice concept, but there's no way to keep those engines happy without lead.

I spoke to someone on a B17 crew (there's a few still flying) and asked him how the hell they snuck up behind me, because the aircraft can be oddly quiet for a four-engine bomber. He said mainly that was because the engines were all extensively detuned to run on modern avgas, they were putting out nowhere near the original rated power because today's gasoline just can't keep them happy that way.

xymotic-
"Well, it's an engineering problem that NOBODY has solved. "
When all the engineering problems get solved, there'll be no more need for engineers, will there?
There are always solutions to be found. Concrete can't be poured or cured below freezing. Except, the Russians had to deal with that and used antifreeze to make it happen. And when the North Slope oil fields were coming in an Alaska and the new pipelines being built, standard steel tools snapped like glass in the cold. New tool alloys had to be found. And they were.
First time I stepped on the brakes in a car after running through standing water, I stopped on the wrong side of the intersection. Hello, memo, drum brakes do not work when wet. Still, if someone sells an engine to a particular market and it can't work there...they need to step up and do something about that.

By the way, Sta-Bil and SeaFoam are very different products. Sta-Bil uses a "proprietary" secret ingredient which is probably an antioxidant. Seafoam is a mix of naphtha, alcohol, and light oil. Alcohol to blow away deposits, light oil to relube what the alcohol has made too clean, and naphtha because, well, that's the main ingredient in gasoline anyhow.

Regular pump gas is typically a witches brew of about 60 ingredients including some like butane and heptane that normally boil out at room temperature after a few weeks or months. So the engineers have a very full deck of cards to fool with.

Last edited by hellosailor; 12-05-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Bob-
Robert-
Surely you guys have some kind of carb jet upgrade to send to Bob? Along with some engineer who wants to visit Arizona and install them?

Apparently the topic of low lead and unleaded and what geneal aviation aircraft can or will use for fuel, without falling out of the sky, is a real hotbed. From what I've heard the EPA wants no lead, and everyone else says that's a nice concept, but there's no way to keep those engines happy without lead.
The jet is pretty easy to replace in most smaller outboards. I could post the procedure for the BF5 if needed.

A little off topic, but a good read here (scroll down half-way) about progress toward unleaded aviation fuels:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avgas <--I don't have a post-count high enough to make this an active link :-|

-Robert@Honda
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Robert,

Nice to have you here. It's always fun to have access to someone with insider information from the manufacturers.

Have you guys given any thought to making a small (2.5hp or smaller) high thrust outboards? For a lot of small sailboats (say less than 30 foot) we really don't need a 8hp engine, but the small 2.5 is difficult to use because it just cavitates like crazy at anything much more than idle. These are almost exclusively displacement boats, and a prop pitched for planning speed just doesn't work very well.

The other question I have is would it be possible to bring a very small outboard to market? Say 1hp. Most racers want the lightest outboard we can find regardless of the hp. Which has resulted in a huge increase in the old 2 stroke prices. Most of the time a 2hp working 2stroke is going to actually cost more than a new 2.5 from you, just because we need the reduced weight more than the extra hp. It just seems silly that the last motor I bought actually cost me more for a 20 years old motor than a new one would have cost, just to get a sub 20lbs motor.

There is a pretty big market for a sub 20lb motor, regardless of price, or hp rating just to hit rules requirements.
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  #16  
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Nice to have you here.

Have you guys given any thought to making a small (2.5hp or smaller) high thrust outboards?

The other question I have is would it be possible to bring a very small outboard to market? Say 1hp.
Glad to be aboard.

Let me ping the guys over in Product Planning and see what they will share.

-Robert@Honda
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Stumble, in auto racing circuits it is typical to get something like 3-10 hp per cubic inch depending on how far you want the engine to go. So someone at Honda ought to be able to make a nice one cubic inch titanium alloy engine that you could easily get two hp from.

The question is, are you serious enough about your racing to pay them to do it?

Someone at Honda ought to do it as a matter of engineering pride, before the competition puts it on the market. (nudge, nudge)

And if not, what ever happened to giving the crew paddles and loyalty oaths? (G)
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  #18  
Old 12-06-2012
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Honda Guy Here...

Robert: Re: "The jet is pretty easy to replace in most smaller outboards. I could post the procedure for the BF5 if needed." ... Yes, please, that would be helpful. Avgas is solving the problem for now; but I would be willing to try the larger jets for sure!

Thanks. And thanks to the other posters, too - lots if good information here.

- Bob
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Hello,

I paid $1,000 for a 1985 two stroke engine last year because it was 25lbs lighter than the 3hp tohatsu engine I had. I know a number of people that have flown to the Carribean just to buy 2 stroke engines because they are roughly half the weight of the lightest weight engine available in the US.
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Re: Honda Guy Here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
...someone at Honda ought to be able to make a nice one cubic inch titanium alloy engine that you could easily get two hp from.
Honda is no stranger to racing, but to my knowledge, has not been involved in anything on the water.

As with any major supplier to a racing effort, the payoff is in exposure and branding to consumers, and technical/performance lessons inherent in competition that can be turned into sales, a.k.a., "race on Sunday, sell on Monday."

---
robert@hm (Honda Marine)
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.
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