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-   -   43DS cutter conversion (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/jeanneau/28230-43ds-cutter-conversion.html)

shuttersailor 01-23-2007 06:07 PM

43DS cutter conversion
 
I am in the process of adding a furled stay sail, and purchasing a high clew 110% yankee along with the stay sail. If I am to hold a 10% tight angle on the stay sail the sheets will be tracked on the salon roof. SO, does anyone have experience with this? I talked to Jeanneau and got the: "don't know, won't ask our engineers, don't care, don't do it, it will void the warrantee, and don't ask any more questions cause we don't have time for customers stupid ideas" Needless to say, that just made me want to do it more! I am currently having a marine design engineer calculate the loads and give me his opinion....but sure would like some experienced comment.

Thanks

ShutterSailor

sailingfool 01-23-2007 08:40 PM

I'm personally with Jeanneau on this idea, why mess up what the yacht designers planned and built? Add a removable inner forestay for flying your storm jib, and live with a single jib If you use 130% reefable to 100% that should be all you need. You'll have better performance from that sail than the jumble of sails and sheets you describe.

Just my opinion...

Zanshin 01-24-2007 04:13 AM

I have a 43DS and thought (briefly) about a staysail. After looking at the deck structure forward where it could be mounted I realized that quite a lot of additional reinforcing would be needed to support the loads this sail would take (my intent was to use it as a storm trysail). The cabin deck has enough openings in the leads on my boat to take an additional furling line and could support 2 more sheets, but the angles would be wrong so these would also have to be led parallel to the Genoa lines and the added hardware would make walking forward tougher.
It would be great if your engineer could find a viable solution, but I'm not too sanguine about it.

shuttersailor 01-24-2007 09:49 AM

That is a good point...and I went back and forth for a long time. I am planning to sail down the coast of the US and Mexico, then to Australia, with my wife and I as crew. Up wind performance in winds over 18 kts is a real problem with the 130% jib and in-mast main furling. Soal keel doesn't help. Major reefing of the jib destorys the shape and results in no drive and lots of tipping force....I guess in the long run I have opted for more control in high winds, even though I know I will loose some light wind performance. This is if the engineer is comfortable.

Zanshin 01-24-2007 10:07 AM

I've only done one long haul upwind with over 20 knots all the way and yes, performance was pretty bad with a reefed genoa. There was a thread a couple of days ago showing a stormsail/small genoa that would slip over the furled one - this looked like a perfect option and I noted the manufacturer (on my other PC at home). In order to reinforce the deck for a second hardpoint upfront you would need to "intrude" on the front cabin quite a bit, perhaps a full lateral support. I intend on doing the Pacific crossing in the 43DS as well but think that a stormsail as mentioned above should be sufficient. Plus LOTS of plywood/fiberglass covers for all that window surface!

shuttersailor 01-24-2007 11:10 PM

The verdict came in from the designer..... reinforce (install a bulkhead) just aft of the chainlocker then use a tang for the stay from the bulkhead just foreward of the windlass. run the sheets to the forward portion of the current tracks (completely solves any structural considerations) and see how things work....keep my 130% jib to retain light wind performance (currently GREAT). The upwind performance problem is partially because of the soal keel but mostly because of the in-mast furling, no roach, out of shape mainsail. So I am considering a verticle batten sail. Anyone have thoughts on this?

GeminiDaze 01-26-2007 05:56 PM

Hello all. I am new to this site and new to Jeanneau. But I think I do have some insight. I also have a 43DS and unfortunately have not been able to sell my Cascade 44 yet do to other challenges.

Here is what I have to offer. On my Cascade I added a 130% Roller Furling Headsail and a behind the mast Roller Furling Main sail all for the benefit of my 110lb wife (I was too lazy to crawl out of bed to help change sail plan). The Cascade was alway overpowered with a huge main sail (20ft boom) above 18kts wind, very much weather helm. But when I put the Main Furler on, if I too about 2 feet off by fuling the main, I found I could get up to 25kts wind without fighting the helm and didn't loose any real speed.

While in San Diego last week sailing in and out of the bay to ocean, my 43DS was acting much like my old cascade. So I though I would give some shortening a try. I first rolled in the Genoa which did two things, releived the helm and also gave me a better view under the Genoa. Wind was about 18-20kts. Still had a little weather helm but I was clocking 8.5kts over water. Thought that was neat so I took in about a foot on the main and the weather helm was completely gone and was still clocking 8.5kts over water.

I orginally thought I wanted to do the same as you but after some playing with the shorter sails I have given up the idea completely for all the reasons previously mentioned.

Now I am spending my money on a removable bowsprit by Selden and adding a A2 Gennaker by North Sails and may opt for a storm. Got enough sail for heavier winds but not much for the lighter ones downwind.

Hope this helped.

JJ

shuttersailor 01-27-2007 11:21 AM

Hello Again,

You make good points... I have a storm tracker.... works but is one hell of a fight to get it on! I have some new input from a combination of design person and UK sails.... The net result is:
1) don't dis your shoal keel...it will serve you well in the pacific
2) if you want to improve upwind performance especially in high wind, put real sails on your boat. New fabrics and carbon strands have revolutionized sailmakers ability to keep both jib and main flat and in shape with deep roller furling, while reducing weight aloft by 30% to 50%. All this combines to keep the boat on its feet with full jib and main reefed up to 40% (???) in winds up to 30 kts to windward and 35-40 downwind. Big claims!
3) A staysail is appropriate for an ofshore boat, for storm conditions...and lead the sheets on a traveler forward of the mast or to current or new deck tracks...not the cabin roof. Just keep it lower than 15 % angle...10% is better.
4) all think that a watertight bulkhead just aft of the chainlocker is beneficial to the boat in general and the right way to support the inner stay.

We will see...I will be on the boat with all these guys the first week in February to make final decision. I will let you know how it all turns out.

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT...it helped focus the argument!

Shuttersailor

shuttersailor 01-28-2007 12:18 PM

Keel type...shoal or deep ???
 
Thanks for the inof.... fis your 43DS standard or shoal keel???


Quote:

Originally Posted by GeminiDaze
Hello all. I am new to this site and new to Jeanneau. But I think I do have some insight. I also have a 43DS and unfortunately have not been able to sell my Cascade 44 yet do to other challenges.

Here is what I have to offer. On my Cascade I added a 130% Roller Furling Headsail and a behind the mast Roller Furling Main sail all for the benefit of my 110lb wife (I was too lazy to crawl out of bed to help change sail plan). The Cascade was alway overpowered with a huge main sail (20ft boom) above 18kts wind, very much weather helm. But when I put the Main Furler on, if I too about 2 feet off by fuling the main, I found I could get up to 25kts wind without fighting the helm and didn't loose any real speed.

While in San Diego last week sailing in and out of the bay to ocean, my 43DS was acting much like my old cascade. So I though I would give some shortening a try. I first rolled in the Genoa which did two things, releived the helm and also gave me a better view under the Genoa. Wind was about 18-20kts. Still had a little weather helm but I was clocking 8.5kts over water. Thought that was neat so I took in about a foot on the main and the weather helm was completely gone and was still clocking 8.5kts over water.

I orginally thought I wanted to do the same as you but after some playing with the shorter sails I have given up the idea completely for all the reasons previously mentioned.

Now I am spending my money on a removable bowsprit by Selden and adding a A2 Gennaker by North Sails and may opt for a storm. Got enough sail for heavier winds but not much for the lighter ones downwind.

Hope this helped.

JJ


GeminiDaze 01-29-2007 05:05 PM

Mine is a standard keel but I would think mine would track even better than a shoal draft with full sails out.

JJ


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