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  #11  
Old 09-03-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

While there are times you don't want to gybe and a chicken gybe is called for (yes, I've even done this) Wing on Wing is not all that terrible. While this is not a video from the boat I was on.... at the 2:00 mark it does show wing on wing in 25+ knots.


On my buddies boat we were a little more occupied being doublehanded!
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  #12  
Old 09-07-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

Yea, I think the issue here was not W&W, DDW, gybe, or chickens, it was the "vodka infused partner". Keep everyone on the same page, control the gybe, and keep sailing. There are times when a tack just makes sense from a safety standpoint, but to say you will never go W&W or gybe would be to leave tools outta the toolbox.
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Old 09-07-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

I have very little experience with Vodka and sailing but I'm wondering if your partner is accustomed to just grabbing the sheet and slapping the boom over as a method of jibing.

That technique may be ok for a super light wind sail or a race boat designed for it.


So maybe the problem is that your friend doesn't know the standard way to gibe.

So my question is which of the three things he did wrong were caused by alcohol and which if any by lack of training.

1. An improper maneuver
2. No communication
3. performing the maneuver in the wrong way

P.S.

If you are the captain and it's your boat and something happens because your friend has too much to drink it is your fault.

Of course I'm sure you know that.

I'm just mentioning it for new folks that might not know the law. On coastal waters it's pretty much the same rules as the highway.

No drinking and driving.
http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/bo...itiatives.aspx
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Last edited by davidpm; 09-07-2013 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 09-07-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

The more I think about this the more I'm thinking I wasn't clear or strong enough in my last post.

Let me fix that.

What you did could very possibly fall into the the following category's.

STUPID, CRIMINAL, and potentially HOMICIDAL.

It is against the law.
It is against common sense.
It is against prudent seamanship.
It is reckless.

If you continue to captain in this way it is not a matter of if, but only a matter of when it will catch up to you.

When it does it is then a matter of how much it will cost in lives and property.

If I was not clear enough ask some questions. There are plenty of experienced people here that can help you out.

The law specifically says boat operator. But since it is highly likely your buddy grabs the wheel once in a while and his handling the sheets might be interpreted as operating the boat it is very slippery legal ground and is different in every state.

There is no up-side to letting a potential driver or crew get plastered even if with a good lawyer you get to stay out of jail.
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Last edited by davidpm; 09-07-2013 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 09-10-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

How do you like your Dutchman?
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Old 09-11-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

I shall avoid the "are heavy-air jibes safe when some of your sailhandlers are drunk?" issue, as i think it answers itself, and may have been raised partly in jest at the outset.

But in heavy air or light, I have a suggestion for those who cruise or daysail with assymmetrical chutes. ( I frankly think syms are easier to jibe, even with the pole, since you don't have to "wipe" the spinny over itself to change tacks, but I find I must yield to the modern world on this.)

Here it is: Do go to wing and wing, that will get the spin "pre-jibed". Then, jibe the main. Much less chance of task-overload on you and crew, and less chance of the sideways forces on the new jibe overpowering your rudder and putting you into a roundup-knockdown.

(Racers typically have less time and more crew so I wouldn't preach this to them. But for us less-pressed folk, it's worth considering. Even so, it goes better without too much vodka ;-)
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Old 09-11-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

Quote:
Originally Posted by LooseDiamond View Post
Lessons taken from this experience: 1. Don't sail dead downwind and 2. Never wing/wing.
As others have said, these are NOT the lessons to take from this experience. This was not a problem with sailing dead downwind, nor with sailing wing-n-wing. This was a communication problem.

Good luck.
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Old 09-11-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

I agree with what has been said regarding the Captain's responsibility, communication and not drinking while sailing.

I am posting to add a little technique for future reference. Sailing WW you are set to heave to. Come up without jybeing, back wind the jib, set the tiller to steer to windward. Here you can reef the main.

If your priority is to get the jib down, I find the easiest way to do this in strong wind is to blanket the jib with the main. If WW I come up enough without jybeing to get the jib to collapse, ease the halyard and let it drop on deck. I do the same when on beam or broad reach, just turn down more so the jib collapses. At this point I can stow or change out sail. After changing for smaller jib I can come up close hauled sailing on the jib, ease the main only until it luffs, then put in a reef.

I am mostly a lake sailer where wind can be extremely shifty and gusty and these techniques have helped me.
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Old 09-11-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

At the risk of some offense, gybing, wing on wing, etc.. is all part of sailing 101. If you can't safely do this in up to 25 knots of breeze in a keelboat, the best thing to be done is to sign up for some lessons or invite more experienced sailors out with you and have them show you how it's done. You aren't a sailor yet if this stuff isn't mastered no matter how many books have been read on the topic. It takes time, mileage, and experimentation. A few sessions in a laser in 10-12 knots of breeze will also help a ton. And those sailors you invite to help you figure things out? They can probably even manage it all even after a beer.
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Old 09-11-2013
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Re: DDW and bailing out

All you had to do was blow the jib sheet and you would not have been wing and wing. Nor would the boat have gone hard over.

I learned to sail on a catalina 22 and one of the things I learned is to not sail it DDW without a preventer.
I bring that rule to every boat I sail that has a boom lower than my head when standing on the cockpit seats (all boats for all intents and purposes).

I seldom use a whisker pole (don't own one).
With a preventer rigged, and no whisker on the jib you helm the boat to keep the jib full, and in the event of 'bad' stuff you simply blow the jib sheet and pull in the main to center. Even single handed it's simple, you only have to do one thing at a time.
Besides saving you from vodka infused idiots (the preventer would have stopped him) it also helps vodka infused helms men. You only have to steer to the jib.

Rig your preventer with a line long enough to reach a block on the bow and come back to the the winch/cleats on both sides.
Set the preventer with a clip/shackle on the boom and haul the boom forward with the winch on the other side.
Gybe by pulling in on mainsheet and letting out on the winch/cleated side, change shackles when centered and then trim to other side. You never loose control of the main, or the boom.
Saves gear smashing, and forehead repairs.
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