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Running Speed vs Close-Hauled Speed

9K views 20 replies 10 participants last post by  FirstCandC 
#1 · (Edited)
Yesterday winds were N-NW about 8-10 mph. A nice day, although cloudy. A boat followed us out of the creek- it could have been a Cape Dory. 3 round portlights on each side? I could vaguely read a C on the mainsail, and I think it was a 27. I let them get ahead about a third of a mile, and then thought maybe I could catch it. We were right between running and a broad reach, and the current was also helping us along. We got up to 5 knots with no heel. 100 Working jib and main both off to starboard. I had the main situated almost perpendicular to the boat. BUT I could not catch the other boat, even when I tried pinching closer to the wind. Our boats were going almost exactly the same speed. It was probably due to my consumate lack of skill, coupled with my old sails? The other boat looked a lot newer, and the sails looked really nice and crisp. Yeah, that's it. He beat me because of the newer sails and boat. :)
Anyway, on the way back in, we got a nice run for a while, and got another 5 knot reading. Is this just a characteristic, that we are getting similar speeds, despite going in opposite directions at the same wind speed? One would think that running with the wind and current would be faster? It also seems a lot more fun sailing close-hauled, no?
 
#2 ·
...I could not catch the other boat, even when I tried pinching closer to the wind. Our boats were going almost exactly the same speed. It was probably due to my consumate lack of skill, coupled with my old sails? The other boat looked a lot newer, and the sails looked really nice and crisp. Yeah, that's it. He beat me because of the newer sails and boat. :)
He could have beaten you because he had a newer boat or newer sails, or more sail trimming or helmsmanship skills, or because your boat's bottom was dirty or rough, or for a gazillion other reasons. Your C&C is a good design, and, if it has decent sails and a smooth, clean bottom, it should be capable of competing with most conventional cruiser/racers.

Anyway, on the way back in, we got a nice run for a while, and got another 5 knot reading. Is this just a characteristic, that we are getting similar speeds, despite going in opposite directions at the same wind speed? One would think that running with the wind and current would be faster?
My first question is whether you were measuring your speed with a knotmeter (which measures speed through the water), or with a gps (which measures speed over ground)?

It also seems a lot more fun sailing close-hauled, no?
Fun is wherever you find it. I love to sail closehauled, and wing-and-wing, and on a reach, and in light air or in a blow. It all has it's challenges. Learning how to sail well in each of those conditions is a separate mystery, and it's always a joy whenever you can solve one of those mysteries.
 
#4 ·
I've found broad reaches with just a main and jib to take a bit of playing around with the position of the main and jib. Having the main perpendicular to the boat will blanket the jib, which may provide the most power in this situation. In our boat, having the main hauled in a bit and the foresail out tends to provide the best power.
 
#5 ·
Was measuring speed with the GPS. On the way back, I tried to run down a San Juan 23. This boat had 4 people in it, all in the cockpit. It sure seemed to be riding low.
This time I was really closing in, and Sea Mist was in the groove! It felt great! And then, due to some inexplicable reason, the San Juan tacked hard right in front of my bow. I mean a HARD starboard tack. I wasn't really upset, but the channel wasn't very wide at that point, so I MADE A CIRCLE, which probably made me look like I was under the influence at the wheel. There was no way I could have cut to port to avoid him, but I guess I could have dumped some sail to drop off my speed until he passed. That ___ San Juan! I will see you this weekend San Juan. Oh yes, this weekend INDEED!
 
#9 · (Edited)
Your C&C 27 III's mean PHRF is between 177 to 183, depending on inboard or outboard.

US Sailing does not even have a rating for the Com pac - apparently it has not been raced. Locally, it appears to rate between 207 to 237, so in a race you give it a minimum of 24 seconds, maybe even 60 seconds a mile to catch up with you.

You got some 'splainen to do...:eek:

Seriously, in 8-10 knots, if you don't have a spinnaker, you should be carrying your largest genoa (not your working jib), probably poled out to leeward on a broad reach and wing and wing downwind. Your IOR-influenced sailboat has a large foretriangle for large headsails, and a relatively small mainsail. Your "J" measurement is 11.75' and your "E" measurement is 10' (roughly the same as a Pearson 28-1). There is your advantage for speed - big jibs and big spinnakers hanging from the very top of that tall masthead rig. You need more sail up front!

If you care about speed and passing other boats, you need at least an asymmetrical spinnaker and, one would hope, a symmetrical spinnaker.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Might want to look into downloading a sailing polar for your boat. It will give you a fairly good idea if you are sailing your boat up to it's potential. It is always better to compete with yourself than with others. That way as time goes on you always will do better. If polar is not available at least get the local PHRF number. That way you at least know what speed you should be doing on average. If that's not available at least calculate hull speed ( sq root of LWL x 1.32). In anything over ~10kts I strive to get to that number. Sometimes successfully ( grin).
Always compare SOG ( speed over ground-e.g.gps) to speed from log ( speed through the water). That tells you how much "set" you are getting from tide/current etc. Use log speed to compare with info from sailing polar.
 
#10 ·
Thanks. Hanging my head in shame over the Com-pac! I do have a 150 in good shape. I have been using the 100 exclusively since my June launch. Thought it might be a good idea to learn with the smaller sail.
Not into racing, but something about a Com-pac getting smaller and smaller off the bow just isn't right..
 
#16 ·
Not to worry, if your boat's rating was re-calculated using your jib your rating would be much closer to the Com-Pac's number. When sailing down wind, sail area is king! That's why they invented spinnakers!

My least favorite point of sail is running. Given the choice I would much rather reach. Often reaching will get you downwind faster than the boat that is running DDW since you have the ability to build your apparent. You sail more distance, but you do it faster than the boat sailing the rhumb line.
 
#12 ·
Mr. Christian, forty lashes to this man!

JW layed it out for you. It's a learning experience. No worries it will be at least 2016 before the next America's Cup so you've got time to practice!!!!


Seriously, racing other boats can get pretty frustrating. Especially if they are supposed to be slower than you. More frustrating is racing a one design race and having other boats pass you like you have a flat tire on the turnpike.

If the need for speed becomes a "thing" with you, try crewing with some of the locals on race night. A season spent on a racing boat will teach you more than you could possibly read on how to go fast, really fast with a blow boat!

Then you decide you need to buy a race boat and name it some really cool name like Hammer Lane or Game On! Pick the right name and other boats just get out of your way.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Running vs Close-Hauled

Hey,

For me, the windspeed makes all the difference regarding my preference of running vs beating.

If the wind is under 5 kts I prefer to beat upwind. There isn't enough wind to run and even reaching is sort of slow. I can maximize the apparent wind by sailing upwind.

If the wind is around 10 kts I prefer a beam reach. There is enough wind to make the boat go fast, on a beam reach I don't much heel, and it's just fine to sail like that.

Once the wind gets above 15 kts true, it gets less fun sailing upwind and more fun sailing downwind. Upwind I will have the main reefed, and I will be going around 6 kts and the apparent wind will be around 20. The boat will be heeled over, which is fun for an hour or so, but then gets tiring. Downwind is a different story. I can sail at 120 to 150 degrees, keep boat sails full, easily reach hull speed, have no heel, and the apparent wind will be below 10, so everything seems nice and easy.

The next time you get 15 kt wind do this experiment:
Sail upwind, as close to the wind as you can. Do this for an hour. Try to do some simple things while you are sailing upwind, like make lunch, use the head, read a chart.
Then turn around and sail downwind, at around 130 degrees or so.
Try to do those same things.

Then tell us which one you prefer.

Barry
 
#17 ·
In 8-10 kts you should absolutely be flying a 150% genoa if you want to go as quick as you can. On the other hand, if you are short-handed, new to the boat or just want something a little more relaxing, your working jib will be plenty nice to sail with, at the cost of a knot or two of top speed. I have spent the last few months just with a 115% up on the furler, I sail alone so the ease of handling overcomes the need for speed (in lighter air of course, 15kts of wind and you are at/above hull speed on a reach quite easily even with that up).
If you can't sail fast, at least try to look good, and that's easy in the 27 :)
 
#20 ·
Yeah, sometimes you just don't have a choice if you want to get to your destination! It's times like that you are grateful that you know how to sail upwind, and your boat is set up to do it well. Over that kind of distance an extra 5 degrees of point makes a huge difference!

Enjoy the journey!
 
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