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Old 06-09-2006
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Something About 30 feet curiser

Dear All,

I got a yamaha 30, and I'm not a good sailor want to know my boat's performance is normal or something need to be improved.

LOA:9.5M
Weight: 4200KG
Head Sail: 150% Genoa

UpWind: Flat water, 12 knots wind I can go 6 knots normally the boat speed is 45%-50% of the windspeed. the boat starts heeling severly if i have less than 6 crews. Should I reef? I've already pulled everything to make the sails as flat as possible, or it's time to have new sails?

Downwind: Normally I can go around 70% to 80% of the wind speed with spinnaker

Please share your experience on a 30 footer.
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Old 06-09-2006
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Hi I am not familair with the Yanmar but at 4200 lbs it is a very light performace design so needing lots of crew can be expected. You do not mention what sails you have, dacron, kevlar?
You should try not to heel more than 20 degrees, it will slow you down after that.To reduce heeling especially if dacron you need to get the flattening reef and cunnigham in tight. Then drop the traveller all the way down if necessary. I assume you have a smaller headsail so that choice should have already been made.
It may be time to have your sails ceheck over by a sail maker and get his opinion on the, a bit hard to do on hte Net.
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Old 06-09-2006
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The Yamaha 30 began life as an IOR era race boat. As such they were intended to carry a lot of crew weight on the rail for optimal performance. IOR boats of that era were designed to carry a comparatively large sail inventory and do comparatively frequent sail changes. A boat like the Yamaha would have been raced with a crew of 7 or so and would have carried a Mainsail, a # 1 (155% and perhaps even a heavy and light #1), #2 (135%-140%) and #3 genoa (110%) and a blade jib (95%) plus two spinnakers (star cut reacher and radial downwind) and maybe a blooper. As I said, in changable conditions there were frequent sail changes.

So what do you do when you don't have six gorillas hung out on the rail......First of all you depower. Depowering is a process of flattening your sails, moving the sail's camber forward and reducing the angle of attack of the sail. It is a step by step process.

In order, as the wind builds, you tighten the backstay adjuster, tension halyards, increase outhaul tension, lower the traveller to leeward, increase mainsheet tension, move the genoa sheet lead aft a couple inches, and increase genoa sheet tension. Once you have done all of that, if you are still over powered then the next step is to tie in a flattening reef, which does not remove much sail area but greatly flattend the mainsail. If you are still over powered you really tighten the boom vang and then ease the mainsheet so that the mainsail is carrying a bit of a luff. On a boat like the Yamaha 30 most of your drive comes from the genoa and so even if you have to 'flag the mainsail', in other words allow the mainsail to luff, you still may be better off.

Your boat speeds are actually quite good for an IOR era 30 footer. It may also be time for new sails as older blown out sails will produce heavier weather helm and more heel angle.

Jeff
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Old 06-09-2006
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Thank you much for you replies. The information are really very helpful.
Unfortunately, it's 4200KG, around 9000lbs......
I'm using dacron sails, but there's no cunnigham at all I'm wondering is it normal?
I'm going to replace my main sail, what are difference between full batten and half batten, inspite of the price? Also I found one strange design from Sailseast, which the top two are full batten while the botton two are half. http://www.sailseast.com/Products.htm
Do you think the design is good? By the way, I really don't like their service totally not helpful....
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Old 06-09-2006
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I prefer using the halyard instead of a cunningham (the halyard does a better job of flattening the center of the sail) and can only assume that the prior owner of your boat felt the same way. On a 30 footer I prefer a full length upper batten (or two) with partial lower battens. The full length uppers allow more roach and extend sail life while the partial length lowers provide more sail trim info and allow more sail sculpting. I am a fan of buying sails from the top flight lofts. Their cutting patterns are usually more up to date, they have a wider sellection of fabrics, and their fabric inspection techniques far better than the small lofts can achieve. I have actually gotten better prices from the big lofts than the small by buying during times of year when the big lofts have discounts and by taking advantage of discounts for prepayment etc.

Jeff
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Old 06-09-2006
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Re the cunningham: Does this boat have a sliding goose neck? If so, that would take the place of a cunningham. Just in case, the goose neck is the connection between the mast and the boom. Most boats have a solid goose neck, but some allow the boom to slide up/down the mast slot. H
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Old 06-09-2006
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With older stretched sails, often the halyard is topped out, and all you have left is the cunningham if you are trying flatten an older sail. If you go that route, make sure it is a reasonably powerful tackle (6:1 or more)

If you have bagged out sails, it won't take much wind before you are heeling heavily and flogging the mainsail in the backwind of an overfull genoa, especially on the headsail-heavy rig on a Yamaha 30.

I've seen some tempting prices from on-line lofts, but really you're better off to stick with top line locally represented lofts. Sails often need minor adjustments, and getting a new no-name sail altered locally might be a challenge. Also the risk of requiring alterations is much higher if the sailmaker doesn't do his/her own measurements prior to building the sail.
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Old 06-12-2006
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Thanks all again for your information, I don't have a sliding goose neck... seems the only solution for me is to get a new main sail. The best local sail maker I heard from friends is UKSails, but seems they are more specific in tapedrive sails. The problem is I go sailing very often, normally over 50 hours a month. I heard my friends told me tapedrive sails' life time calculated by hours..... Is that true? And does their darcron sails' reputation as good as the tapedrives?

Another question, I saw some people handle the spinnaker very easily with a spinnaker sock, will there be any disadvantage using a sock?
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Old 06-12-2006
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Unless you are exclusively into competitive racing, I'd back away from tape drive and other exotic (read expensive) sails and stick to a quality dacron. Quantum offers a hard "racing" dacron that we used on one of our boats. It was fast and is still looking good after several years' racing in generally strong breezes. If cruising is your focus (eg daysailing and gunkholing) then a quality dacron sail will give you years of service. You'll be amazed at the improvement over the old sail.

Re; spinnaker snuffers/socks, they do work but involve more rigging, the sock is always scrunched up at the top of the rig and are normally found on assymetrical (poleless) cruising chutes rather than conventional spinnakers. I'd favour getting the techniques down for spinnaker handling with a conventional poled chute (not so difficult on a 30' boat) and you'll get improved performance and the ability to sail deeper more comfortably than a cruising chute.
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Old 06-12-2006
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"LOA:9.5M...UpWind: Flat water, 12 knots wind I can go 6 knots"

That's good enough for a boat with old sails and new crew. Typical for the length.

What kind of sails and sail controls are "right" for you can be a long debate, I would keep my wallet stowed and get some time on the boat first to see what you want to do. If you are in an area where there are any sailmakers, try calling the local ones first, or stopping by. Let them know you're new, you have questions abou sail trim, and maybe buying new sails, and can anyone come out to the boat either to sail with you or to take a look? Or to talk for a few minutes? (Stop by at 10:30AM with coffee and donuts, odds are they'll make time.)
The "big" racing lofts may not want to bother with you, but some shops will. Likewise, if you ask the mailorder places, some will take the time to talk with you, or invite you to call them. Others won't.
Having an IOR design and not having rail meat to ballast it, means you won't be hitting the full potential of the boat. Nothing to lose sleep over, you do what you can. If you can find some VPP (velocity prediction program) software, or polars for your boat, you can get some figures on what combinations of sail and trim are going to work best for you. With the VPPs you can do things like compare wind speed and boat speed to sail size. That can tell you that reefing at 12 knots, or 14 knots, or 16 knots, is faster than not reefing. And what size foresail is fastest, etc.
Of course you can get some of that information just from sailing the boat but sometimes you can't "pretend" to have a sail as easily as the computer can.
I'd also say to stick to dacron, nothing exotic, for cruising or club racing. And for every sail control you add, yes, you can get more control but you also will have to do more work and rig more lines. So, if you start with what you have, spend a month or two getting the feel for it and thinking out options slowly--and with input from other sailors, racers, or lofts on your boat--you'll probably spend less and get more in the long run.
Or, if you go into real competitive racing...you'll join the "headsail of the week" club. Use 'em once and throw 'em away, time for a newer better sail.
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