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J24 Heeling

10K views 26 replies 10 participants last post by  nolatom 
#1 ·
So my wife and I got our ASA basic about two months ago and bought our first keelboat last month (a J24):D . Needless to say, this boat is an absolute hoot to sail especially when "heeled over".
My question is at what angle does this beast let go? We've had the toe rails under water several times. I've noticed that with two people the boat seems extremely over powered with the 150 Genoa.
So, how far is too far?:confused:
Cheers!
 
#2 ·
You do know that the boat will sail much faster if it is sailed relatively flat, rather than heeled way over, where it will suffer from more weather helm, rudder drag and far less performance... Generally, sensibly reefing a boat will improve the safety, ease of handling and speed of a boat over letting the boat be overpowered by the wind. Just my $.02 worth...

Sailing foolishly is a good way to get drowned. :D
 
#3 ·
Yep, I already knew that its much more efficient with 3-4 people being used as "railmeat" to keep it from heeling, but the wife and I have been enjoying the ride set over. BTW: when playing around we do make sure that we are away from others, wearing pfd's, etc...
It was just a question pertaining to the "heel factor".
 
#4 ·
Most keelboats, if you really try to heel them, will lay over until the sails are more horizontal than vertical, at which point the wind is more or less spilling over the "top" of the sails rather than over the leech. At that point, they don't have much more heeling power, and the keel weight and buoyancy of the well-submerged lee side of the hull equal the diminished heeling power of the sails you refused to ease out. What's that angle? I don't know, maybe 50-60 degrees, which will feel to you like you're about to fall off a cliff. Ease the sails, and she'll pop back up.

If you heel that far, bear in mind your rudder's going to be out of the water, so forget about steering. Depending on how much weather helm you have, you may have been fighting the helm to get her to heel that far to begin with, and once the rudder is out of the water, she may head up on her own, depending on the fore/aft balance of center of effort versus center of lateral resistance.

There are scientific stability calculations to tell you why all this is so. Keelboats, once you release the force that's heeling them over, will pop back up, assuming there was nowhere for water ingress while heeled.
 
#5 ·
Funny enough, I just got my ASA Basic a few days ago, and in a J24 to boot! :)
I have no useful advice here as I'm a newbie, but I have to ask, we heeled a few times to the point where the toe rail was in the water, and that scared the hell out of me, how can you heel so far over and not fall off or get nervous? Especially since you are asking us how far the boat can go?
 
#6 ·
StarrySkies

Alcohol! Just kidding.

I am relatively new as well and have found that there is a learning curve of getting used to it, and enjoying it. I've had to ask myself "what's the worst that could happen?" Properly balanced sailboats will "round up" into the wind when they become overpowered. It is very difficult to knock down or capsize a sail boat (in most conditions). As the boat heels more the wind is spilled off the top of the sails.
 
#7 ·
It may be useful to you folk to install a "levoguage" or "inclinometer", a small gauge available at all chandleries that just sticks to the boat wherever you install it. It has a small ball in it which tilts as the boat heels, and tells you immediately how far over you are heeled, up to 45 degrees (at which point you should have taken corrective action). The advantage of having this, is that once you have a bit of experience with the boat, you know how far the boat can reasonably heel, and then when it happens again, you don't get so anxious, because you can monitor it.

We had one on our old boat, but there isn't one on the boat I recently bought. The first time out was a windy day, but with a reef in the main, I was sure we weren't heeled over even 15 degrees, but my wife was getting concerned, as she didn't know the boat :eek: (we had had our previous boat heeled over to 35 degrees on occasion in a wind gust or just for fun, but even being heeled over much less on our new boat was a bit worrisome for her). I will get a levoguage for our new boat, and then she won't worry any more! :D
Just a thought....
Frank.
 
#8 ·
I just posted this in a VERY old thread by mistake, also about heeling. I'm an engineering student, so I went looking for a technical answer to the heeling question and I found this:
http://www.sailbuyersguide.com/articles/boatpages/StabilityAndTheGZCurve.cfm
Essentially, to flip the boat, you need to be past 90 degrees!!!
That's amazing, now that I know that, I won't be nearly as nervous.
 
#10 ·
Powerboat wakes can also flip a heavily heeled boat. BTW, the compass I have has an inclinometer built into it...not really all that useful on my boat, but you might find it useful... I have a Tri—doesn't really heel all that much if I'm sailing it right. :D
 
#12 ·
Great responses guys! Thanks.
Its odd, but it just seems as though some in the sailing community go instantly into the "sky is falling" mode whenever someone says "heeling" (not to offend anyone). The main reason I bought a J24 is for the pure fun factor. If I'd had wanted to be completely sedate I'd have looked at some other boat.
Already have an inclinometre and am currently staring it down with an evil eye.
I leave in 10 minutes for some more practice...;)
 
#14 ·
I do go into "Sky Is Falling" mode, since I'm on a multihull and they aren't supposed to heel....and if they do, you're about to get borked.

However, that said.... sailing on a heeling monohull can be lots of fun, provided you do so under the right conditions... and risking your crew or yourself is never fun.

One of the best days I've had this season was on a J/24 and we actually did suffer a spinnaker broach...
 
#15 ·
Dirty, they ARE fun but do remember you CAN broach and sink them. If they are still being made the same way, a broach will open the lazarette which will fill the boat and sink it. Keep those lazerettes secured.

You're lucky enough to have a lot of support from the J/24 class association so you can get the polars CHEAP and those will also tell you the fastest points of sail and fastest heel. You can also get more speed by trimming the spreaders down to the minimum length (in the class assn specs) so you can sheet in and point higher upwind. One of the J Bros. directly told me to do that, sometimes you actually get them on the phone!
Great company to deal with, lots of info available from them.
 
#16 ·
In my experience on a J24, when the boat is over powered with the 150, it'll round up before it gets knocked down. Flat is fast, 20 - 25 degrees of heel. Hanging that 150 out there with too much wind and no weight on the rail is fun for awhile but it's slow and the boat pounds too much upwind. They are fun boats! My first real sailboat was a J24. Enjoy it!
 
#17 ·
sailingdog said:
I do go into "Sky Is Falling" mode, since I'm on a multihull and they aren't supposed to heel....and if they do, you're about to get borked.

However, that said.... sailing on a heeling monohull can be lots of fun, provided you do so under the right conditions... and risking your crew or yourself is never fun.
Next time out on your tri-hull SD, see if you can get one of your crew to waterski . . . now that's extreme fun.​



 
#18 ·
Great Photo !!

Hey that is an assume picture!

Back to heeling keel boats. As has been said here as the boat heels the wind spills over the top of the sails until you hit equilibrium. The important thing on any boat but especially a smaller one like the 24 is to make sure the hatches are secured so if you do broach you will not take on water which can spoil your day. Also make sure everyone stays on board, that is the real danger.

Having raced keel boats for more decades than I care to remember, heeling under white sails is pretty tame and really hard to get into any real trouble.
How ever a really colourful spinnaker broach will entertain everyone on the race course. With a spin and enough wind it can drag you side ways with the mast head near or in the water. That catches your attention.

Pretty rare especially now that most racers use tweekers or twings to choke the chute down but in the good old days I have seen mast head wind instruments ripped off. That would be considered a knock down. :)

gary
 
#19 ·
TrueBlue- Those are a bit bigger than my little tri. :D But on a good day, we do get up past 14 knots...
 
#20 ·
Wow, what a bunch of girly men. "Don't heel, its dangerous and you might flip." You guys sound like you are cowering in the corner sucking your thumbs at the thought of a puff of wind. You are sailors for God's sakes not Chamber Maids.
I sailed a J24 for years and you would really have to be pushing it to flip it. Go out there and enjoy yourself. If you like the way it feels when it heels do it. If you are racing, get some meat on the rails and find the balance that will help you go the fastest. Geez, wrong place to ask that question...obviously.
 
#21 ·
Surfesq said:
Wow, what a bunch of girly men. "Don't heel, its dangerous and you might flip." You guys sound like you are cowering in the corner sucking your thumbs at the thought of a puff of wind. You are sailors for God's sakes not Chamber Maids.
I sailed a J24 for years and you would really have to be pushing it to flip it. Go out there and enjoy yourself. If you like the way it feels when it heels do it. If you are racing, get some meat on the rails and find the balance that will help you go the fastest. Geez, wrong place to ask that question...obviously.
Surfesq-

I don't mind heeling on a J/24. It's really designed for it...and last two times I was out on one, we had a spinnaker up, and on one occasion we broached the boat...and the boat was heeled over 75 degrees, with me sitting on the lifelines, up to my hips in water... A lot of fun...but not exactly recommended technique on a tri.
 
#23 ·
When I'm sailing with the guys the lower rail's usually in the water. When on the Hobiecats I usually take out from resort beaches, I'm hiked out and finding that groove.

But I guess I have to act like a "girlie-man" when my wife is onboard our boat - she's got a fear of heeling beyond 10 degrees. The girls must stay happy and comfortable you know.
 
#24 ·
TrueBlue said:
But I guess I have to act like a "girlie-man" when my wife is onboard our boat - she's got a fear of heeling beyond 10 degrees. The girls must stay happy and comfortable you know.
At least if you know what is good for you. ;) Getting the women in your life stirred up and pissed off is generally a bad thing... and unhealthy.
 
#25 ·
Thanks for all the great beta guys. Gee, its my wife who is primarily the one coaxing me to set the J24 on its edge...Lucky me. We are absolutely keeping in mind the chance of capsize, etc. I.e.: keeping safe distances, within our limits/knowledge, closing everything up tight, etc.
Cheers
 
#26 ·
Rails in the water is not the threat... it's flying the spinnaker on the downwind when you can lose it...

Make sure the lazerettes are secured as posted earlier.

Also, you don't need the 150 genoa for 2 people... I'm using my small jib when I only have 2 or 3, and the boat feels more in balance too.

To make it sail flatter when it gets overpowered, let out the traveler, tighten the vang, put on the cunningham and some backstay... makes a huge difference...

Mike (j24 owner)
 
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