J24 Heeling

dirtylittlesecret · #1 (**permalink**) 07-30-2006

So my wife and I got our ASA basic about two months ago and bought our first keelboat last month (a J24)

. Needless to say, this boat is an absolute hoot to sail especially when "heeled over".
My question is at what angle does this beast let go? We've had the toe rails under water several times. I've noticed that with two people the boat seems extremely over powered with the 150 Genoa.
So, how far is too far?

Cheers!

sailingdog · #2 (**permalink**) 07-30-2006

You do know that the boat will sail much faster if it is sailed relatively flat, rather than heeled way over, where it will suffer from more weather helm, rudder drag and far less performance... Generally, sensibly reefing a boat will improve the safety, ease of handling and speed of a boat over letting the boat be overpowered by the wind. Just my $.02 worth...

Sailing foolishly is a good way to get drowned.

dirtylittlesecret · #3 (**permalink**) 07-30-2006

Yep, I already knew that its much more efficient with 3-4 people being used as "railmeat" to keep it from heeling, but the wife and I have been enjoying the ride set over. BTW: when playing around we do make sure that we are away from others, wearing pfd's, etc...
It was just a question pertaining to the "heel factor".

nolatom · #4 (**permalink**) 07-31-2006

Most keelboats, if you really try to heel them, will lay over until the sails are more horizontal than vertical, at which point the wind is more or less spilling over the "top" of the sails rather than over the leech. At that point, they don't have much more heeling power, and the keel weight and buoyancy of the well-submerged lee side of the hull equal the diminished heeling power of the sails you refused to ease out. What's that angle? I don't know, maybe 50-60 degrees, which will feel to you like you're about to fall off a cliff. Ease the sails, and she'll pop back up.

If you heel that far, bear in mind your rudder's going to be out of the water, so forget about steering. Depending on how much weather helm you have, you may have been fighting the helm to get her to heel that far to begin with, and once the rudder is out of the water, she may head up on her own, depending on the fore/aft balance of center of effort versus center of lateral resistance.

There are scientific stability calculations to tell you why all this is so. Keelboats, once you release the force that's heeling them over, will pop back up, assuming there was nowhere for water ingress while heeled.

StarrySkies · #5 (**permalink**) 07-31-2006

Funny enough, I just got my ASA Basic a few days ago, and in a J24 to boot!

I have no useful advice here as I'm a newbie, but I have to ask, we heeled a few times to the point where the toe rail was in the water, and that scared the hell out of me, how can you heel so far over and not fall off or get nervous? Especially since you are asking us how far the boat can go?

astraeus · #6 (**permalink**) 07-31-2006

StarrySkies

Alcohol! Just kidding.

I am relatively new as well and have found that there is a learning curve of getting used to it, and enjoying it. I've had to ask myself "what's the worst that could happen?" Properly balanced sailboats will "round up" into the wind when they become overpowered. It is very difficult to knock down or capsize a sail boat (in most conditions). As the boat heels more the wind is spilled off the top of the sails.

FrankLanger · #7 (**permalink**) 07-31-2006

It may be useful to you folk to install a "levoguage" or "inclinometer", a small gauge available at all chandleries that just sticks to the boat wherever you install it. It has a small ball in it which tilts as the boat heels, and tells you immediately how far over you are heeled, up to 45 degrees (at which point you should have taken corrective action). The advantage of having this, is that once you have a bit of experience with the boat, you know how far the boat can reasonably heel, and then when it happens again, you don't get so anxious, because you can monitor it.

We had one on our old boat, but there isn't one on the boat I recently bought. The first time out was a windy day, but with a reef in the main, I was sure we weren't heeled over even 15 degrees, but my wife was getting concerned, as she didn't know the boat

(we had had our previous boat heeled over to 35 degrees on occasion in a wind gust or just for fun, but even being heeled over much less on our new boat was a bit worrisome for her). I will get a levoguage for our new boat, and then she won't worry any more!

Just a thought....
Frank.

StarrySkies · #8 (**permalink**) 07-31-2006

I just posted this in a VERY old thread by mistake, also about heeling. I'm an engineering student, so I went looking for a technical answer to the heeling question and I found this:
http://www.sailbuyersguide.com/artic...TheGZCurve.cfm
Essentially, to flip the boat, you need to be past 90 degrees!!!
That's amazing, now that I know that, I won't be nearly as nervous.

FrankLanger · #9 (**permalink**) 07-31-2006

Just keep in mind that a boat heeled over less than 90 degrees can still flip over if hit by a wave at the wrong time.
Frank.

sailingdog · #10 (**permalink**) 07-31-2006

Powerboat wakes can also flip a heavily heeled boat. BTW, the compass I have has an inclinometer built into it...not really all that useful on my boat, but you might find it useful... I have a Tri—doesn't really heel all that much if I'm sailing it right.